Prioritizing Tuition (Split from School Closing)

zipporah

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 9:54 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

I also think families can probably cut more than just the $50/month. I think most families can probably trim a few hundred dollars a month. Yes, including the $200+ they spend on cleaning help. If those same families are now able to save $400/month, that's almost enough to keep the school open!

It's impossible for a woman to work full-time to pay tuition without cleaning help.

I'm hoping you're joking about the impossible part. If you can afford both the help and full tuition (and it does sound like there is a lot of administrative fees that could be cut in a lot of cases) then that's great. But in the non-Jewish world most people work full time without cleaning ladies. Do you think the cleaning lady has a cleaning lady?

realeez

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 9:56 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

Its going to happen more and more.

People aren't prioritizing money for tuition. Schools have less and less and have to fundraise more and more. There are a limited number of donors and they are just tired of bailing everyone out.

I'm not surprised.

Keep in mind that this school had about 10 kids in each grade requiring the same amount of Rebbeim, teachers, secretaries, office staff, hanhala, rent, etc that a school with 25 kids per grade would need and even with everyone counting pennies, without a huge donor to jump in and help out when needed, unfortunately, it costs a lot and tuition will only go so far.

saw50st8

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 9:57 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

sawFiftyStates I believe HY works full time, despite having three or four little kids. what else should she do? work 15 hours a day and let someone else raise them??

If it makes economic sense and she wants to pay for Yeshiva, then yes.

Otherwise, no.

But staying in the same situation with no hopes to improve is just being a drain on society. She should be actively trying to increase her earning/potential and her husband should do the same.

zipporah

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 9:58 pm

realeez wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

Why couldn't they double up the classes and cut some of the teachers? Like the old one-room schoolhouse days (but not so extreme)?

Atali

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 9:59 pm

I think that in the majority of cases a woman should be able to manage without a cleaning lady, but there are exceptions where a cleaning lady really is a necessity. The examples that I can think of off the top of my head are those with unusually long hours (people who work two jobs or go to night school), those with health issues, or those with very severe ADD or other conditions that make it difficult to keep a house clean.

That is why I think that one generally shouldn't judge others who need cleaning help. They may have a legitimate reason to need it. Rather, you should be honest with yourself about whether you really need the help and prioritize tuition above other things.

saw50st8

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 10:01 pm

Atali wrote:

I agree that there are cases where people need cleaning help.

I can tell you that 95% of the people I know have cleaning help. 95% of the Orthodox Jews I know are working two jobs or have health issues or severe ADD? I'm not buying that.

realeez

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 10:02 pm

zipporah wrote:

realeez wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

Why couldn't they double up the classes and cut some of the teachers? Like the old one-room schoolhouse days (but not so extreme)?

I don't know the decisions that went on. My kids are in a different school since although the school did sound great, I was always worried about what if it does close since at one point a big chunk of this school did merge with another school.

Atali

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 10:09 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

Atali wrote:

95% of the people you know (who do not pay full tuition) have cleaning help? How often?

While I certainly agree that many people could cut out the cleaning help, it wouldn't surprise me if about 10% of the community or more actually needs it. A lot of people these days do have extenuating circumstances and these cause more of a problem in the frum community because people in the frum community have more kids on average than those outside of it.

I know that this will lead some to argue that it is wrong to have more kids than one can afford, but that is a much more complex issue for many reasons.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 10:17 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

HY, there is a flipside to the not affording tuition - what are you doing to earn more money so that you can pay for it?

Again, not everything is feasible for everyone. You mentioned you got internet to work more. Is your husband taking on some more hours if feasible? Are you babysitting when the option arises? Things like that.

We live in a society now where people want everything even if they can't afford it. If yeshiva tuition is unreachable for so many people in your community, its time for your community to rethink how it works. Maybe homeschooling co-ops would be a better idea than formal schooling.

Leaving the house at 8:10 to come home at 3 to be home for my son, working again every single night, including M"S, thank you VERY much.

Please stop your judgements that I find insulting on every thread where you think women who are not you should take night shifts (oh and still take care of their children at daytime so they don't pay for babysitting).

supermommy07

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 10:19 pm

This cleaning help conversation is stupid has nothing to do with this school closing down. All of us in the community feel very sadened by what happened. Good luck to all the students and teachers!Its too bad that this community which has lots and lots of extremely wealthy and generous families couldnt help out. I hope that all the teachers and staff will get paid up to date.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 10:19 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

Again, not everything is feasible for everyone. You mentioned you got internet to work more. Is your husband taking on some more hours if feasible? Are you babysitting when the option arises? Things like that.

We live in a society now where people want everything even if they can't afford it. If yeshiva tuition is unreachable for so many people in your community, its time for your community to rethink how it works. Maybe homeschooling co-ops would be a better idea than formal schooling.

Yes, he's been trying to make money when possible. Nothing has panned out for over a year now, thank you VERY much. He started one extra small thing this year that doesn't pay consistently.
Oh, and one other thing that he does when no one else would think of working cut back pay, thank you VERY much.

I'm just laughing at your assumptions and assurance that you are the only one right.

You have NO clue.

Thank you VERY much.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 10:22 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

But staying in the same situation with no hopes to improve is just being a drain on society. She should be actively trying to increase her earning/potential and her husband should do the same.

There are you stupid assumptions. And I don't use this word lightly. I've debated this with you before, and you can't see that your ideal world is NOT reality in these economic times.

I DID manage to get a raise this year that was well deserved and extremely necessary, but not every company is rolling in money. A layoff is actually about to happen.
I DID get the internet to work more. I write in my "free" time to try to sell articles. I AM trying to increase earning potential. It's NOT easy and your haughtiness that since you can do it every one can is absolutely disgusting.

supermommy07

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 10:24 pm

Oh and to add, even though I dont want to because like I said its off topic and offensive.
Whoever it was that is judging pple with cleaning help and not enough money to pay full tuiton... do YOU work 40+ hours a week, make an honest living, spend time with your all of your children, make lunches,dinner everynight and do all of your house work?!?! I dont think so and unless YOU DO dont tell someone else to do it. and even if you do, who are u to judge another womans capabilities?

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 10:26 pm

Just a question for you saw.

You think it's unethical to be on foodstamps. Would you prefer someone to go on them to pay full tuition or pay for their own food, get subsidized tuition, and give back money where they can?

I'm not saying school tuition is not a priority -- it's our top one, to be honest, right after making ends meet for our actual day to day expenses.

Hopefully, the economy will turn around, my job will pay more, my husband will get more stable income, our housing expenses will go down, but until now, believe you me, there is nothing we're doing wrong, and everything we're doing right.

I did delete my original post if you noticed so it wouldn't become a personal argument, but I felt like I have to defend myself once you did respond to my deleted post.

In the kitchen

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 11:00 pm

From what I have seen, our schools have very many more employees than public schools...ex. a secretary for every teacher?! (not sure what the case is here, but from a different school who struggles to pay employees on time)... something has to give...

Op I'm sorry for your school closing down, it is hard to find a place that you like hashkafic wise, is nearby and has great teachers...I hope your son has an easy transition to the new school.

saw50st8

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 12:07 am

HY, I didn't make it about you, you did. Only you know truly if you are doing your best. I was giving some examples of how people can decrease expenses or increase their funds to pay for additional tuition. If you are doing your best, kol hakavod to you.

I have no problem with people who use food stamps. I have a problem when people have no plan on how to get OFF social welfare programs. If you say "I'm going to be in school for 4 years and then get a job etc etc" and have a plan, even if you can't stick to it. But your plan shouldn't be "I'll forever be on food stamps and scholarships."

Maybe you live in this ideal town where everyone is eating rice and beans to support the local Yeshiva. I can tell you in all three cities I've lived in (all three with major Jewish populations), tuition was the back burner, because "a rich person will cover the rest."

Atali, everyone around me has cleaning help. Its a cultural norm here. Even the people on scholarship. I'm a rarity in that we don't have it and the reason we don't get it (we could use it) is because its a luxury we don't want to get trapped into "needing." I think once you get cleaning help it really becomes hard to function without it.

I think the reason many schools are closing is that the economy has hit a lot of rich donors who can no longer afford to fund as many tzedakas or with as large donations.

We are doing everything we can right now to save for Yeshiva tuition, something I know many of my friends are not. One said to me "I can pay full tuition, but why should I?" Maybe I'm just jaded.

chavamom

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 12:12 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

But staying in the same situation with no hopes to improve is just being a drain on society. She should be actively trying to increase her earning/potential and her husband should do the same.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my husband recently where I was encouraging him to try to find a salaried job (he runs a non-profit and has to fund-raise his salary) with benefits. He countered with "if I am lucky, I could have an increase in pay and get benefits. OR I could be like the huge number of people I know right now who have been laid off for over a year or are working in jobs with salaries greatly below what their education level should merit".

We know a guy with an MBA and tons of experience who just took a job for....wait for it....$25K a year. B/c it was a job with benefits. Which was more than the unemployment he'd been drawing for over year now.

Your attitude is not realistic based on the current economic reality and a REAL CHUTZPAH.