Daas Torah | Imamother

Motek

Sun, Jul 09 2006, 2:49 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

A person is a gadol because other people who are great in Torah recognize him as such. E.g. hundreds of thousands of people including many, many great rabbanim in themselves will go and ask their most difficult questions to e.g. Rav Elyashiv or Rav Chaim Kanievsky. Who told them that they have to go? No one. But great talmidei chachamim who have a question feel that these are people on an even greater level than themselves. They know.

I'm quoting you from another thread. Yes, this is how many gedolim became known as gedolim.

Though of course there are countless people over the generations down to the present day, who are equal to or surpass "known gedolim" but for whatever reasons, never became famous.

As far as asking R' Elyashiv a halachic question, of course, he's a posek! And as far as asking R' Chaim Kanievsky a question in Torah, Gemara etc. of course, he's a baki!

The question I'm raising is, "Daas Torah" is a recent term. I'd like to know the source for it and where it first appears in sefarim.

It's not "Emunas Chachamim" which is mentioned in Pirkei Avos and numerous other places. How do they differ?

Motek

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 10:08 am

Hmmm. There are women on this forum whose lives are guided by Daas Torah but don't know the source for it?!

How do you determine who has Daas Torah or who doesn't? Does the rav of any shul have it? Does it depend on the size of his congregation, on how many people come and ask him shailos? What if he's not a practicing rabbi?

Can a great talmid chacham who is not well-known have Daas Torah?

What are the guidelines?

mummyof6 said that your own rav tells you who has Daas Torah, I want to know how he knows!

TzenaRena

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 11:34 am

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It means that a pesak of a Rav with shimush will run contrary to the conclusion of a baal habyis (balabus) based on those same sources.

Actually, it 's the baal habayis who will reach an opposite conclusion - that is, of the actual Halacha, even if he is very learned and well versed, but if he is not a practicing Rav with shimush that is what will happen.

So in this respect, Daas Torah means to be mechaven exactly to the truth of Torah as it intends the halacha to be. It's not something a baal-habayis could do, however learned.

shalhevet

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 11:58 am

Motek wrote:

mummyof6 said that your own rav tells you who has Daas Torah, I want to know how he knows!

I think it works like this:
The more someone is a specialist on a particular topic, the more he understands the difference in level between other specialists.
E.g. if you put 5 pediatricians in a room to diagnoze a child I wouldn't have any idea who's right. But if I brought a nurse there, she would probably know which 2 are more expert. If I brought a regular doctor, who hadn't specialized in pediatrics, he would probably know better than the nurse. If I wanted to know who the best two or three pediatricians in the country were I would do best to ask very good pediatricians at the top of their profession.

Similarly, if I would ask some ignorant Jew who has Da'as Torah, probably anybody who learnt in a yeshiva for a year or two is a real Talmid Chacham. If I ask those who learnt in yeshiva who are reliable rabbanim in their town I imagine they would know. And that rav will understand who are the few greatest rabbanim in the country. Because the more you know about a subject the more you can differentiate between levels of learning.

Since many serious people who are learned in Torah regard our rav as a great Talmid Chacham in our town, this to me means he is "qualified" to say who has Da'as Torah, as well as the fact that he himself has da'as Torah. Like any respnsible doctor, a responsible rav knows when a question posed to him needs to go "higher up".

Motek

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 12:06 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

Since many serious people who are learned in Torah regard our rav as a great Talmid Chacham in our town, this to me means he is "qualified" to say who has Da'as Torah, as well as the fact that he himself has da'as Torah.

At what point did your rav acquire it? In other words, what are the qualifications? Is age a factor?

Can a very learned woman, a teacher and/or rebbetzin, have Daas Torah?

And it still does not answer the question I raised in my previous post - Daas Torah as the term is used today, is a new thing. When and how did it acquire this new meaning?

I know of many frum Jews, learned ones too, who don't believe in this modern definition of Daas Torah because they see it as nothing but a modern invention with no Torah basis. And maybe this view is Daas Torah too.

shalhevet

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 1:53 pm

Motek wrote:

mummyof6 wrote:

At what point did your rav acquire it? In other words, what are the qualifications? Is age a factor?

I think it is relative. As a person learns more (assuming his actions are appropriate) he achieves a higher level of da'as Torah. The more a person knows the more Torah influences his way of thinking. I don't think there is a cut off point as to x has da'as Torah.

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Can a very learned woman, a teacher and/or rebbetzin, have Daas Torah?

And it still does not answer the question I raised in my previous post - Daas Torah as the term is used today, is a new thing. When and how did it acquire this new meaning?

Interesting questions, Motek! I'm waiting for the answers too.

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I know of many frum Jews, learned ones too, who don't believe in this modern definition of Daas Torah because they see it as nothing but a modern invention with no Torah basis. And maybe this view is Daas Torah too.

I don't think this is a new invention. It says in the Torah that a person with a question should go to the chachamim (wise men) of the time. There were elders and judges from the time of Moshe Rabbeinu. It says in the Gemora that someone who has a sick person in his house should go to a talmid chacham to pray for them. People sent letters across oceans to Gedolim, including the Rambam, to ask their opinions on all sorts of things. Maybe just the name is new.[/quote]

Motek

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 6:49 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

1) It says in the Torah that a person with a question should go to the chachamim (wise men) of the time. There were elders and judges from the time of Moshe Rabbeinu.
2) It says in the Gemora that someone who has a sick person in his house should go to a talmid chacham to pray for them.
3) People sent letters across oceans to Gedolim, including the Rambam, to ask their opinions on all sorts of things. Maybe just the name is new.

I added numbers to what you wrote to set them off as three different things. None of those things were called daas Torah. Re #1 - The questions asked of the chachamim were halachic in nature.

If other types of questions were asked, they were definitely not viewed as a psak or the word of G-d, but the advice of a wise and learned man.

Re #2 - of course you ask them to pray. That has nothing to do with daas Torah but prayer!

Re #3 - As far as I remember learning, the nature of these questions were primarily halachic in nature. And again, if other questions were asked, the responses were regarded as the opinions of wise and learned men, nothing more.

shalhevet

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 7:07 pm

Motek wrote:

mummyof6 wrote:

We have no way of knowing. I am quite sure you have no source for your opinion, just as I have no source for mine. I, personally would think that the people went to them with the same variety of questions as people ask rabbonim today.

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Re #2 - of course you ask them to pray. That has nothing to do with daas Torah but prayer!

But it says specifically them (as well as the sick person himself). It doesn't say go and ask the local accountant. Meaning to ask a Talmid chacham is on a different level.

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Re #3 - As far as I remember learning, the nature of these questions were primarily halachic in nature. And again, if other questions were asked, the responses were regarded as the opinions of wise and learned men, nothing more.

I specifically mentioned the Rambam because his Iggeret Teiman, written in response to a question from the Jews in Yemen is da'as Torah and not halacha. I also think they were primarily halachic, but not exclusively.

The question, Motek, is also where you draw the line between a halachic question and a da'as Torah question.

For example, (since we have been discussing it in another thread) - a woman asks a rav if she can stop nursing her six-month old because she feels she it is sapping her strength. I think most rabbonim would let her stop since their is formula available.(halacha) But a rav may add (da'as Torah) that maybe she should continue nursing and get added help, or her husband should help her, or that it is worth carrying on etc etc.

Or, e.g., a husband comes to a rav and asks if he is obligated to buy his wife something for yomtov since he can't afford it. The rav says (let's say) that he doesn't have to (halacha) but suggests he borrows money (da'as Torah) or works extra hours, or cuts back on something else, or says he should explain to his wife, or even gives him the money to do so.[/quote]

Motek

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 7:44 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

We have no way of knowing. I am quite sure you have no source for your opinion, just as I have no source for mine.

Of course we have sources. We have volumes and volumes of Shaalos and Teshuvos and we know how gedolim felt about blindly following non-halachic advice because they said so.

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I, personally would think that the people went to them with the same variety of questions as people ask rabbonim today.

Of course! The difference is that in years gone by, you followed the psak of the rav you asked and you either did or didn't follow their advice. The latter was optional. Not until the rise of the Chasidic movement do we find that people consulted Torah scholars for business, medical etc. advice and followed it blindly. And the Misnagdim found this extremely objectionable.

That is why it is extremely peculiar that many non-Chasidic people today have taken on this "blind faith" approach to non-halachic issues which they have termed "Daas Torah."

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But it says specifically them (as well as the sick person himself). It doesn't say go and ask the local accountant. Meaning to ask a Talmid chacham is on a different level.

Agreed!

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I specifically mentioned the Rambam because his Iggeret Teiman, written in response to a question from the Jews in Yemen is da'as Torah and not halacha.

Oh? And by Daas Torah you mean?

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The question, Motek, is also where you draw the line between a halachic question and a da'as Torah question.

The answer to a halachic question is found in halachic works. The answer to questions about what job a person should take, where he should live, where he should send his children to school, etc. etc. are not halachic questions that need a practicing rav to answer them.

A rosh yeshiva, a mashgiach, a rebbetzin, a Bubby or Zeidy, are people who can give good advice. (They also can and sometimes do, give bad advice).

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But a rav may add (da'as Torah) that maybe she should continue nursing and get added help, or her husband should help her, or that it is worth carrying on etc etc

Tell me this - if the woman asked me, and I told her the same thing, would I be saying Daas Torah?

In other words, what do you mean when you say that the rav might add "Daas Torah?" He's giving her some suggestions that her mother, friend, husband etc. might give. Same for the advice for man about the jewelry. Are you suggesting that she or he must abide by his advice because it's Daas Torah?

shalhevet

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 7:59 pm

Motek wrote:

And here's where we differ.

When a person who is a great Talmid Chacham gives that "advice" it is not advice like your Bubby gives you. It is "da'as Torah". He has siyata dishmaya to say the correct thing. You don't have to take the advice, because it is not halacha, but you will only do yourself a favour if you do. I don't want to go into personal details but I can only tell you to ask people who do this - the "advice" is always good. I am not Chassidic and I am not an emotional person. I can tell you - it works.

About your examples about e.g. where to send kids to school - I really think that is a halachic issue. Presumably you mean school X is preferable because of Y and school A is better because of B. This is halacha because it's going to affect your children's chinuch.
The job question may involve halacha depending on the circumstances - e.g. earning more vs. more time to learn.

Motek

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 8:47 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

Do you appreciate the humor in what you wrote?

Here's where we differ?!

This "Daas Torah" that you believe in has been adopted from the Chasidim, so how do we differ exactly?

What's peculiar about this view that that R' Chaim Volozhiner (Ruach Chaim 1:4) writes:

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It is forbidden for a student to accept his Rebbe's (teacher's) words if he has questions on them.

In other words, according to R' Chaim V. there is no such thing as blindly accepting what someone tells you. You might choose to because you think the person has good advice, but no way were people indoctrinated with an idea of Daas Torah until recent decades.

Of course often their ideas "work"! That's not surprising. If they are highly intelligent people and they are devoted to learning Torah, they may be granted siyata dishmaya in their advice.

But of course you are aware of rabbonim who give bad marital advice, bad chinuch advice etc. and articles are written about this, training is suggested for rabbis who need to counsel their congregants etc.

amother

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 9:06 pm

The term “daas Torah” first appears in Chullin 90b, to ask whether a cited opinion on a halachic matter was logincally derived from the sources, or the tanna's personal opinion as informed by his da'as Torah.
The term suggests that Rabbinic authority is based not only on the sources but having “a feel” for Torah in a manner that a lay person does not. Otherwise, someone with a good CD would have as much daas Torah as a great Rav.
We next see use of the expression “Daas Torah” by R’ Yisrael Salanter , who advised approaching a Rav even on non-Halachic matters, as all decisions can affect one’s growth in Mussar. Rav Yisrael ascribes importance to the effect of Torah on shaping the thought of the one who learns it.
However, R’ Yisrael was referring to asking a Rav who knows the petitioner well, and can give advice specific to the person’s situation.
Where the concept of “daas Torah” is on shaky ground today, is that it has extended to asking “Gedolim”, who may have no personal connection with the questioner, about all manner of political, financial and other issues unrelated to Mussar or personal growth. This is neither what the Gemara, or R' Yisrael Salanter are discussing.
Daas Torah may be on a continuum, rather than be absolute. It may be possible to have a little Daas Torah, some Daas Torah, or a great deal of Daas Torah, rather than either having it or not.

Motek

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 9:15 pm

amother wrote:

So here it's used in the opposite manner! Here, daas Torah is the opinion based on the sources, as opposed to his personal opinion (which is called "daas nota")

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We next see use of the expression “Daas Torah” by R’ Yisrael Salanter

Have a source for this? Something we can look up?

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Where the concept of “daas Torah” is on shaky ground today, is that it has extended to asking “Gedolim”, who may have no personal connection with the questioner, about all manner of political, financial and other issues unrelated to Mussar or personal growth. This is neither what the Gemara, or R' Yisrael Salanter are discussing.

indeed

And why was your post anonymous?

shalhevet

Wed, Jul 12 2006, 3:11 am

mali wrote:

mummyof6 wrote:

You don't have to take the advice, because it is not halacha, but you will only do yourself a favour if you do.

If you're the one choosing when to listen to him, and when not to listen to him, you can't go around waving this "Da'as Torah" flag. Just say that that is what appeals to you. Don't go around telling other people it's Torah.

If we ask our rav about something we do it, we don't just pick and choose. I was just explaining, in response to Motek's question, that someone doesn't have to do it.

I think there may be some confusion as to what is meant by da'as Torah. I am talking about issues which have repercussions on a person's mitzva observance e.g. chinuch (educational) issues, job issues if it will have an effect on the person's spirituality (e.g. higher pay vs. more conducive working environment.) I am not talking

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about all manner of political, financial and other issues unrelated to Mussar or personal growth.