Severely disabled, is she still a mom? (frum woman)

Tova

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 6:46 pm

Ruchel wrote:

This woman had a civil wedding. She was not frum at all.

I have never heard of two girls. I have learned, one boy one girl, two boys, two boys and a girl...
If we don't know til the next generation, then how can rabbanim give bc heterim before you are a grandmother?

Got it.

You are asking a very good question. I don't know the answer. I believe this is a minority opinion, but I'll have to ask my husband. My daughter was the kn"h 7th grandchild born to my parents, but her birth made it that my father had (at least) a son and a daughter who each had one of each gender. Regarding the BC heterim, perhaps they don't hinge solely on the fulfillment of pru urevu. I don't know that a Rav would paskin differently about BC if a family had 3 girls or had 1 girl and 2 boys if the mother needed a little break or spacing. My impression was not. Generally it is encouraged that a couple do try to bring children into the world initially upon marrying, but often the exact genders afterwards are not practically relevant.

Raisin

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 7:16 pm

Tova wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

the heter is given to the woman because childbirth can endanger her life or health. And the mitzva of peru urevu is on her husband anyway. thats why some MO posters on this site maintain that you (ie women) don't need to ask for a heter at all.

smilingmom

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 8:03 pm

My brother is married with three girls. His wife went from being physically active to became a quarpalegic approximately 4 years ago, after having surgery. This is in Israel and their is no lawsuit or money for her pain and suffering.
My brother is now father and mother to these kids, plus he has the burden of taking care of his sick wife, who can speak and make her desires known, but does not have the use of her arms or legs.
The kids are extremely attached to their mother and though she cannot do anything for them, they love her as much as any child loves there mother.
It would be very easy for my brother to let his wife live in a nursing home and for him to bring up the kids by himself, perhaps visiting their mother occasionally, but my brother has values that would not allow him to abandon his wife, regardless of how difficult the next fifty years may be.

kitov

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 8:27 pm

smilingmom wrote:

Big difference in situation, in these words alone.

smilingmom

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 8:48 pm

kitov wrote:

smilingmom wrote:

Big difference in situation, in these words alone.

That is what makes it more difficult for him. She can constantly make demands, but is so dependent on him to do everything for her. It is such a one sided relationship, it is like having an extra perpetual infant to take care of. He married a women who was suppose to be his helpmate and mother to his children, and she is neither. He takes care of her with love and devotion, but his situation is extremely difficult, perhaps more difficult than Dan's who wife needs just physical maintenance and support and has the resources to financially be able to meet her needs.

tzipp

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 10:49 pm

smilingmom wrote:

kitov wrote:

smilingmom wrote:

Big difference in situation, in these words alone.

This is a different situation,

Life is much more complicated then "well in one situation it works like x, so in another it must work like y" as much as your personal story is meaningful to you, it's unfair to come to conclusions about other situations that you can't understand.

WriterMom

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 10:59 pm

Raisin wrote:

ruchel, I know its weird, but I do know men who remarried very quickly (or wanted to) after being widowed after a happy marriage. After a divorce it may actually be harder since the person might have had a traumatic experience being married.

I've heard of this too. Apparently, unless you're talking about disgracefully soon, it's a good sign about the first marriage - the person loved being married and wants to have that again. The widows and divorcees I know who are determined not to remarry are often ones who've had a rough time the first time, whether or not it was abusive.

Atali

Tue, Apr 13 2010, 12:22 am

HindaRochel asked me to post this:

Quote:

1. Abbie is in a PVS persistent vegetative state. She is not a vegetable. She very well MAY have awareness. She very well may have a good idea of what is going on. She can not necessarily communicate her needs and want efficiently.

2. Studies have shown that many whom the doctors have given up on CAN and DO communicate sometimes...but they do not necessarily do it on command. They are in and out of a coma like state. The case in Britain the man could move his foot in response to questioning but didn't do it when the doctors were there...(He is AWAKE now and all recognize it)

3. Not being able to communicate is NOT the same thing as being unaware. And the parents and others (the person who wrote the article asked and was answered) have seen indications of response to direct questioning. She can't talk and she can't move so eye blinking is about all you can get at this point. It is probably an effort...a greater effort than most of us could ever know. But she is alive, and thinking.

4. It is possible that the parents are wrong and she is just holding her eyes closed (for a long blink) in answer to questions occasionally. But who wants to conclude she isn't aware and treat her as if she were a lump, rather than talk to her and touch her in a loving manner and show that people care. If this is the ONLY thing that she can receive, wouldn't you want it done for you?

Can anyone imagine or does anyone want to imagine what it would be like to be locked in and not be able to express oneself and to be left alone for hours and hours and hours with only your thoughts? And of course there would be brain deterioration then! The muscles would also atrophy and the pain one felt would be great.

By caring for her as they are the parents are greatly enhancing the chance that she will come out of this state and be able to respond and function at some level.

As for her life-span, it is rare, despite press stories, for a person in a PVS state to live longer than ten years, and the norm is about 5 years (according to my reading). She may persist in this state for decades, or she may achieve some sort of recovery, but most likely she is going to do neither.

And in the meantime it is probably best to treat her as if she were aware, as if she counted and as if she WAS going to recover.
For while it does no harm to talk with her and sing to her and move her legs and arms so that her muscles don't atrophy, and give her acupuncture treatments etc. if she is left and ignored she will most certainly suffer harm if there is any awareness at all.