Severely disabled, is she still a mom? (frum woman)

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 4:54 pm

sarahd wrote:

She is not being punished by being divorced - do you really think she is aware that she's been divorced by her husband?

As I said, I hope not. But we don't know. She is anyway probably aware he is not coming to see her anymore, since she "says" she wants to see her kids, and recognizes her close family...
So. What if she is aware, even "just" of the abandonment? And what if she awakens one day, a miracle or medicine progress?
One year is awfully fast for a husband and father of triplets to have stopped being too attached to his wife, thought of all this, found solutions for everyone, and being confident enough to move on "forever". It's only possible imvho if he only took himself in consideration.

DefyGravity

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 4:55 pm

Ruchel wrote:

DG, so let it not be said that he loves her, or he wouldn't even want companionship from someone else (unless you mean friendship, and then he wouldn't need davka a wife).

How do you know? Do you know exactly how everyone in the world feels? He can love the memory of his wife and still want a real-live relationship with a person that he can interact with. If you don't understand the difference between having a spouse that can talk, love, advise, etc., then I don't think you can truly see where he's coming from. Maybe you don't need much from a spouse, but other people do. This isn't a person that is "only" paralyzed. She's in a vegetative state. Do you know what that means?

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 4:59 pm

DefyGravity wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

DG, so let it not be said that he loves her, or he wouldn't even want companionship from someone else (unless you mean friendship, and then he wouldn't need davka a wife).

When you love one person, you don't care for others. That's pretty much a given...

Either it's a very bad thing to remarry and not love your future spouse (basically a free live in baby sitter), or you're not in love (anymore).
If you're not in love anymore, just after one year, when most people who "only" divorce "normally" take more time to rebuild (despite having had huge issues with the person! which is not the case here obviously), you probably never were so much into the person.

Raisin

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:00 pm

Ruchel wrote:

DG, so let it not be said that he loves her, or he wouldn't even want companionship from someone else (unless you mean friendship, and then he wouldn't need davka a wife).

Sarah: here the spouse is not dead, so yeah. The person he committed to is still there, and she did nothing against him or to "fail" her duties as a wife, except being very unlucky, and she is further punished by being divorced.

We are talking in vain anyway, I don't think he will soon remarry. Few women will want to take on triplets and have to deal with the idea that maybe the first wife will awaken one day (weirder things have happened).

Ruchel, your so romantic it is touching. Wink

And divorcing her is not a punishment.

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:02 pm

Raisin wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Ruchel, your so romantic it is touching. Wink

And divorcing her is not a punishment.

LOL! I guess I have just been surrounded by people like that and stories like that..

I know he doesn't want to punish her. But from her pov, if she realizes (I hope not, again), what else can it be?

Raisin

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:06 pm

Ruchel wrote:

DefyGravity wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

DG, so let it not be said that he loves her, or he wouldn't even want companionship from someone else (unless you mean friendship, and then he wouldn't need davka a wife).

ruchel, I know its weird, but I do know men who remarried very quickly (or wanted to) after being widowed after a happy marriage. After a divorce it may actually be harder since the person might have had a traumatic experience being married.

Raisin

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:07 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Raisin wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Ruchel, your so romantic it is touching. Wink

And divorcing her is not a punishment.

LOL! I guess I have just been surrounded by people like that and stories like that..

I know he doesn't want to punish her. But from her pov, if she realizes (I hope not, again), what else can it be?

but he beleives and has been told by many medical professionals that she is not able to understand or know anything. her parents believe differently (only natural).

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:09 pm

Raisin wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

DefyGravity wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

DG, so let it not be said that he loves her, or he wouldn't even want companionship from someone else (unless you mean friendship, and then he wouldn't need davka a wife).

Certainly it exists. The quickest I know of is a woman who remarried one month (!) after her husband died.
There are also some famous rabbanim I can think of who married very very quickly, but one was childless, the other had only one gender and himself had not long to live. Mr Dorn has two boys and one girl, peru urevu even by the strictest standard...

DefyGravity

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:10 pm

I also don't think love is the type of thing that you only have so much of. You're able to love multiple children. And people do love multiple wives. Regardless, I don't think he loves her anymore, he probably loves the memory of her.

Regarding your assumption that a woman would never want to marry a man with children. It definitely happens. I know someone in her 20's that married a a divorced man that had several kids. There's nothing wrong with her, but this is the man that she fell for. I already mentioned other friends that have stepmothers that aren't evil. Obviously they didn't mind marrying a man that came with kids.

Last edited by DefyGravity on Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:13 pm

Raisin wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Raisin wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Ruchel, your so romantic it is touching. Wink

And divorcing her is not a punishment.

LOL! I guess I have just been surrounded by people like that and stories like that..

I know he doesn't want to punish her. But from her pov, if she realizes (I hope not, again), what else can it be?

but he beleives and has been told by many medical professionals that she is not able to understand or know anything. her parents believe differently (only natural).

So the professionals don't believe, say, that she can "blink" yes or no?

There's unfortunately no way to be sure. The parents can be wishful thinking, or they may "know" their child better. Why take the risk, so quickly (and apparently it had started much before declaring he wants to get remarried, by stopping to come as often), with already the peru urevu mitsva done, with the ability to get help with the kids? Why the rush?
It would also be different if he had someone in mind for marrying. Here he just coldly wants to get rid of her and try to find someone else.

Maybe I don't manage to be clear in English, I dunno... the more I think of it, the more I'm horrified.

Tova

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:14 pm

Ruchel wrote:

To be technical - no, a woman cannot halachically re-marry after one month.

And no, two boys and one girl is NOT the "strictest" standard of the mitzva. Some say 2 boys and 2 girls, some say one boy and one girl WHO EACH GO ON TO HAVE a boy and a girl...meaning, not 'til the next generation could someone know if they were mekayem.

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:15 pm

DefyGravity wrote:

I don't believe people can love several people. When a man has two wives, one is called the beloved and the other the hated.
Also, let's say he can love both, then he wouldn't stop visiting her.

If he loves her memory, why doesn't he "honour" this memory by not pretending she never existed?

Barbara

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:16 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Ruchel, he may love the woman that she once was, but she's in no position to share his life. She can't listen to him, or give him a backrub, after a long day at work. She can't talk through problems with one of the kids. She can't make that little joke that defuses a tense situation, or sit with him on Friday night after the kids are all asleep and talk about their hopes for the future. She can't make sure there's a hot cup of coffee for him when he comes home in the cold.

That doesn't mean that there aren't things that he can do for her, or that he should do for her. There are. And he's remiss in not doing everything that he can, including visiting her whenever possible, helping her parents to ensure that she has the highest quality of care, and ensuring that the kids know all about her, hear stories about her, see pictures, and are aware that mommy loves them so very very much, but is so sick that she can't take care of them. But those things don't extend to spending the rest of his life without the companionship of a spouse.

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:16 pm

Tova wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

This woman had a civil wedding. She was not frum at all.

I have never heard of two girls. I have learned, one boy one girl, two boys, two boys and a girl...
If we don't know til the next generation, then how can rabbanim give bc heterim before you are a grandmother?

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:19 pm

Basically he's like a widower who wants to remarry after one year (shocking in many circles), except she isn't even dead. I just don't get it. After one year, with a living spouse?? I would think someone in love would convince himself (or fool himself, how you want to see it) that there is still a chance... like her parents, basically.

Barbara

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:22 pm

Ruchel wrote:

DefyGravity wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

DG, so let it not be said that he loves her, or he wouldn't even want companionship from someone else (unless you mean friendship, and then he wouldn't need davka a wife).

You don't love your parents? Because when you love one person (your husband), you don't care for others.

Wait, is it your husband that you love, or your daughter? Can't love both. When you love one person, you don't care for others.

Different kinds of love, you say? Well, yes. And his love for a second wife may be very different from his love for his first. Just as it would be if she had died, or if they had divorced (for reasons other than her impairment). That doesn't make it a lesser love.

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:24 pm

Barbara wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

DefyGravity wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

DG, so let it not be said that he loves her, or he wouldn't even want companionship from someone else (unless you mean friendship, and then he wouldn't need davka a wife).

Ok, by love I meant spouse love. Not child or parent love.
If he is unable to give spouse love to the new spouse, he should not get married.

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:27 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

Ruchel, she is in a vegetative state. She doesnt know he left her. She doesnt know anything.

and he needs a wife. no matter how much he loves her, he cant live the rest of his life without a wife and the kids without a mother.

life isnt as black and white as you make it out to be.

From what I read in the article, the parents say she can communicate a tiny bit. I don't know. No one knows. He doesn't know either, hence my surprise (to be nice) at such a quick choice.

No, he doesn't need a wife. He wants a wife (or a baby sitter, we do not know). He can certainly live without a wife, as some did, and a mother she'll never be. If he wants a mother figure for the kids, let them move in by the grandparents.