Severely disabled, is she still a mom? (frum woman)

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Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 8:40 am

Quote:

She can read. She is capable of complex thought.

And she can communicate. With her smile. Her tears. And, most of all, her eyes.

"I ask her, 'Do you want to see your children?' " Susan says. "And she gives me a long blink."

Ok, so she is not SUCH a vegetable who doesn't feel anything.

Quote:

At first, Dan visited regularly, sometimes bringing their babies for his wife to see. But as the months passed, the visits tapered off.

Exactly a year after "the event," Paul was stuck in rush-hour traffic when his cellphone rang. It was Dan.

"I want to move on," Paul recalls his son-in-law telling him. "I want to get married again."

Does it really sound like it's for the kids' sake?

This article is a big chillul Hashem too. So much for the "good Jewish husband" stereotype.

HindaRochel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 8:45 am

Tova wrote:

I don't know, shalhevet. I think the most healthy emotionally thing for the triplets in question is for them and their father to move in with their loving maternal grandparents (from the limited info I have from the article).

If a mother is ch"v in olam ha'emes, I agree with it being the healthiest for the kids for the father to re-marry. But if the mother is alive, I think she should be the "mom" in her kids' eyes.

I am going to have my husband read the article tonight and get his thoughts...should be an interesting dinner-time conversation.

I do think the man has the right to move on. I do think he has an obligation to both the children and the woman who basically gave up her health to these children, to allow them to see her regularly, and to show her Kavod. HE should be spending his money on HER, even if he doesn't want to live with her. He should go out of his way to show her kavod (she gave him three children) and to teach them kibod av v'em in these very trying circumstances.

Tova

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 9:28 am

What does a "right" mean in these circumstances? We don't have a Bill of Rights. We have obligations and responsibilities. Do I have a right to be monetarily supported? No, my husband has an obligation to monitarily support me. Think about it - there is a difference.

shosh

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 10:05 am

I haven't read all of this thread, but in my opinion:

1. I don't judge this guy for moving on with his life. He gave it a year to see if she recovered. In the meantime, he has to single parent three babies, and that can't be easy. And the loneliness and his own pain must be killing.

2. But he is 100% wrong to stop these kids from getting to know their mum, even if she isn't able to communicate with them. She could still be known as their mother. And the kids don't have to feel guilty because this was a result of their birth. Because it wasn't. It was the result of a medical foulup, which makes it even worse.

3. My uncle married a woman whose first dh died when she was pg with her dd and had a little boy in tow. Although my uncle really did the best he could to replace their father and loved those kids, it's interesting to note that neither the dd or the ds ever had kids of their own when they grew up. My aunt told my mother that in both cases it was a conscious decision that had a lot to do with losing their father, which I found terribly sad.

Children need a parental figure in their lives.

I was told by a psychologist that even a terrible father is still better than no father in terms of being a figure in their lives, even if they have minimal, supervised contact.

In the same way, even if these kids grow up knowing their mother as a silent figure in a hospital bed, she still exists as a figure in their lives. Without her, I think it's much, much worse.

It's a shame this guy doesn't realise that. And also a shame that Abbie's parents, who must be hurting so terribly, and Abbie's ex dh who must still be in so much pain, have to fight over this issue instead of working together to give these three little children the best childhood that they can.

frumluv

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 10:14 am

So very sad & a tough situation all aorund.

HindaRochel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 10:23 am

Tova wrote:

True...I wasn't being legal. He still does have the obligation to support her. While he has a secular divorce halachically he is still married to her...even if he got a heter to marry another woman from 100 Rabbis...at least that is my understanding. He is not divorced, he is/would be married in that case to two women.

What I mean by right is that he is not morally wrong to want to have a wife by his side. I don't think he has the obligation to stay unsated shall we say? But he does have the obligation to support her and to make sure her children show her kavod.

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 10:52 am

Quote:

In the meantime, he has to single parent three babies, and that can't be easy.

Then he can hire one (two, three) nurses. He can choose to live with the grandparents (I bet they wouldn't say no). A new wife is NOT there to be a free nurse (I suspect it led to the broken engagement).

Quote:

And the loneliness and his own pain must be killing.

Well. Same for his wife. She doesn't even have really a "body"! she can't express her pain!

Quote:

And also a shame that Abbie's parents, who must be hurting so terribly, and Abbie's ex dh who must still be in so much pain, have to fight over this issue instead of working together to give these three little children the best childhood that they can.

I agree. While in pain (but more of being without a wife than of losing her, or he would spend his days at her bedside!), he is further destroying the family.

DefyGravity

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 11:01 am

I have a feeling that not allowing visitation is more for the husband's sake than that of their children. I understand that he wants to move forward with his life, but unfortunately, he can't completely cut that part of his life completely away. Like it or not, he was once married to Abbie and had children with her. He's never going to be able to fully put that behind him.

He probably wants to distance himself as far away from her and her family as he can as it probably makes him feel sad and guilty to see her in this vegetative state. It's probably very hard for him to see a woman that he once shared so much with to be an empty shell. . . and the only way he can cope is by cutting himself off completely. Unfortunately, he can't do this if he has to bring the children for visitation.

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 11:03 am

What hurts me the most is I hope that Abbie is not realizing he wants a divorce. Although since he doesn't come anymore, she must know there is something wrong.
Does someone have a Jewish name? I would like to daven for her.

chaylizi

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 11:11 am

I got this from the thread mama bear linked to on the 1st page. Chaya Avigail Eleana bas Sara Raizel

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 11:21 am

Eleana or Ilana? I want to get it right. thank you chaylizi!!

Mama Bear

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 11:22 am

In all honesty I highly highly doubt Abbie has even minimal awareness. Whatever awareness she has is of a severely brain damaged nature. she can feel and make expressions but I highly doubt she understands what's going on. brain damage is brain damage, especially of this magnitude.

chaylizi

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 11:23 am

I'm confused now. Maybe you should wait for someone who knows better. It was Eleana in the first post & then subsequent posts were Ilana. Also there seems to be a question as to whether they actually added Chaya or not.

saw50st8

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 11:48 am

I think this is a terrible tragic story.

I can't imagine wanting to move on that quickly. I can't imagine abandoning the love of my life because they became comatose. I can't imagine keeping my children from my spouse.

I got married "for better AND for worse" but I guess he didn't.

yOungM0mmy

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 12:52 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

I don't think that's fair for you to say. Thank G-d you are not in his situation. This is a young man, with a wife who can not be any kind of companion, in deep pain. I don't think he should cut off visitation, for abbie's sake or for the kids, but none of us can blame him for wanting to remarry. It doesn't mean he abandoned her, or does not love her anymore, but he still deserves another chance at marriage and life. What happened is not his fault.

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 1:07 pm

yOungM0mmy wrote:

It doesn't mean he abandoned her, or does not love her anymore, but he still deserves another chance at marriage and life.

If he still likes her, why does he want another?
When you love someone you cannot, even if pushed, replace her/him!

As for not his fault, of course not. Still, she is in that state for his, not her, mitzva. And this is how he repays it.

DefyGravity

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 1:16 pm

Because she can't give him any type of companionship. Do you think you could have a meaningful relationship with a jellyfish? Would you feel fulfilled in a marriage with someone who couldn't talk to you, and (likely) wasn't aware of your presence? I understand that he wants a wife, and unfortunately, Abbie can't be a wife to him. It's just the way it is.

sarahd

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 1:39 pm

Ruchel, WADR for your romanticism, this is a bit ridiculous. I guess you belong to the camp that believes no widow/er should ever remarry because how can you replace the one you loved. The Torah, however, doesn't hold that way and it's unreasonable to expect it from anyone.

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 1:45 pm

DG, so let it not be said that he loves her, or he wouldn't even want companionship from someone else (unless you mean friendship, and then he wouldn't need davka a wife).

Sarah: here the spouse is not dead, so yeah. The person he committed to is still there, and she did nothing against him or to "fail" her duties as a wife, except being very unlucky, and she is further punished by being divorced.

We are talking in vain anyway, I don't think he will soon remarry. Few women will want to take on triplets and have to deal with the idea that maybe the first wife will awaken one day (weirder things have happened).

sarahd

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 1:51 pm

She is not being punished by being divorced - do you really think she is aware that she's been divorced by her husband?

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