Severely disabled, is she still a mom? (frum woman)

shalhevet

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 7:58 am

mynameismom wrote:

Quote:

It is hard to judge someone until you walk a mile in their shoes, but I hope I married a more compassionate man (A REAL MAN), not one that wants to move on with his life.

Your comment really made me think. I'll post with my name even though I may take some bashing for this.

I am sure that if G-d forbid my family was put into a similar situation in which I was this ill with no hope of recovery that my husband would find someone to mother my children and to be a companion with him. I would never wish such a fate on my relatively young husband to live for the rest of his life with a vegetable for a wife and no mother (Im talking about someone who can care for and love the kids) for my children. I love them all too much to ever wish such a fate on them (G-d protect us from such things) Of course I would hope I would have the very best of care but I am too compassionate to my family to think the way you wrote in your last post.

I agree.

I think (assuming the limited knowledge we have from this article is true) that he is very wrong to not allow his childrens' mother to see them. But I don't agree he is wrong for moving on.

One of the comments to the article said a person who marries vows 'in sickness and in health'. But Jews do not. He should care about his wife and make sure she has proper care (which I'm not sure he currently is doing), but that shouldn't stop him finding a wife with whom he can have a normal relationship, and a functioning "mother" for his children.

Raisin

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 8:18 am

Ruchel wrote:

It's easy to have kids with someone and then throw her to the trash.
Maybe a husband could also do that if she gained a LOT of weight?

how in the world can you compare the 2 situations? Confused

No doubt you also think it is wrong for widows or widowers to remarry.

HindaRochel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 8:21 am

I think a year is rather quick, well to me it is, but no, I don't judge him for moving on. I wish women who wish to could also move on. But that is a different issue (his moving on...btw, he is still married to her halachally...he just has two wives) from whether or not he should bring them to see her, or even allow the children to know that she exists, is not dead, and that Saba is her father.

There doesn't have to be a great deal of going into what happened. "Mommy has a bad injury(boo-boo whatever), she got it when you were just babies. Saba and Savta, mommy's parents, think that if mommy would like to see you. Mommy can't talk to you. Mommy can't hug you. Here's a picture of what mommy looks like. Would you like to send mommy some pictures?" (First step)

Second step "We are going to visit mommy. Remember mommy can't talk to you. Mommy can't hug you. You can give mommy a hug and kiss if you want. Mommy may cry or make funny noises. That doesn't mean mommy is sad or angry with you. Mommy is kind of like a baby in some ways."

Kids know more and understand more than we give them credit for.

sa613

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 8:42 am

What I don't get is why the kids weren't visiting her all along. As babies it would not have been traumatic to them and may have been somewhat helpful to the mother. (Don't they try to stimulate coma patients that way?) If they were visiting her all along they would have grown up aware and sensitive to her condition. The more time that goes on the larger the trauma. Aren't there child psychologists involved?

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 8:45 am

Raisin wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

It's easy to have kids with someone and then throw her to the trash.
Maybe a husband could also do that if she gained a LOT of weight?

how in the world can you compare the 2 situations? Confused

No doubt you also think it is wrong for widows or widowers to remarry.

She isn't dead, how in the world can you compare the 2 situations? to borrow your sentence

Mama Bear

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 10:09 am

1. why does the article say he was briefly engaged and broke it off?

2. No way can anyone judge Mr Dorn for moving on. at least the kids have the possibility of having a stepmother. had he stayed married to her they would have no mother. I know of so many such cases where the husband waited and waited and waited but it was killing him and he moved on. Even where I live, one of my classmate's mothers suffered brain damage when she was ill and her husband devotedly visited her every day for several years, but eventually he also remarried. It can kill a person, especially someone this young!!! to spend the rest of their lives with such a profoundly disabled - you can barely call it wife at this point.

3. Even if the kids would be traumatized at seeing her, they should at least know of her existencea nd see videos and photos to prepare them to see her for real in a few years. they shouldnt be denied the existence of their mother.

Barbara

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 10:51 am

smilingmom wrote:

Am I the only one that finds it difficult to dan l'kaf zchus someone who divorces their wife when they are so ill?
It is hard to judge someone until you walk a mile in their shoes, but I hope I married a more compassionate man (A REAL MAN), not one that wants to move on with his life.

You would want him to be tied to you forever although you could never participate in his life in any way whatsoever? Never discuss his day, decisions about the kids, politics, sports, anything at all with you. Never rely on you to help out with anything. Never engage him in any way.

This is different from illness, however severe. A sick person can still engage.

I'm judging this guy pretty harshly for refusing to allow the kids to know they have a mother, for not allowing visits. But not for trying to pick up the pieces of his life and move forward.

shalhevet

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 11:12 am

Ruchel wrote:

A stepmom is not necessarily better than no mom, it can even be much much worse. Especially when the mom is not dead...

Um, is this from your personal experience, of from reading too many Grimm fairy tales?

I'm not saying every woman in the world is a wonderful, loving person, but I do think most frum people I know who have gained a loving stepmother have gained a home, even if an imperfect one (as are most two parent families).

And I guess us overweight wives and mothers better go abandon our husbands and children, since there is no difference between us and someone who cannot communicate with her husband on any level, and cannot care for her family physically or emotionally.

Actually, I think any mother who wouldn't prefer a loving step-mother for her children if ch"v she was unable to raise them herself, is showing herself to be very selfish.

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 11:15 am

shalhevet wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

A stepmom is not necessarily better than no mom, it can even be much much worse. Especially when the mom is not dead...

Personal experiences, unfortunately. Some even had to leave the house as teens, or were shipped out.

How do you make sure the stepmother is and remains loving? how do you make sure the children accept her, even if she is loving?

I would never ever want to put my kid through that bargain.

Tova

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 11:19 am

I was thinking that, Chava.

I agree partially w/ Ruchel. Because it seems like such a slippery slope; where do you draw the line? What level of functioning is enough of a "person" that the "stay" or "move on" becomes an issue. That's what scares me. As women we are, in the "normal" course of our lives, put in positions of yesh bahem sakana that a man in the normal course of his life is not.

I do want to know that no matter what medical position I ever face, my husband is by my side. I would certainly be that way to him (irregardless of the halachic aspect that Chava mentioned).

More to say but no time...

DefyGravity

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 11:26 am

Ruchel wrote:

You can say the same thing about a child's birth mother. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees in life. I have some close family members of mine that ended up with a terrible step-mother. At the same time, I know other people that are so lucky to have fathers that remarried and have a wonderful family unit because of the marriage. I know two different families that had crazy mothers that left their families. The fathers remarried, and thankfully, the children consider their step-mother to be their full-fledged mother and she's a great mother to the kids.

I know several other people that have stepmothers who I always thought was their birth mother.

Tova

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 11:27 am

I don't know, shalhevet. I think the most healthy emotionally thing for the triplets in question is for them and their father to move in with their loving maternal grandparents (from the limited info I have from the article).

If a mother is ch"v in olam ha'emes, I agree with it being the healthiest for the kids for the father to re-marry. But if the mother is alive, I think she should be the "mom" in her kids' eyes.

I am going to have my husband read the article tonight and get his thoughts...should be an interesting dinner-time conversation.

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 11:31 am

DefyGravity wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Yes certainly some mothers are no good, or even evil. But, generally, a stepmother if more of a problem than a mother.

HindaRochel

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 11:38 am

chavamom wrote:

While I don't agree with Ruchel and certainly don't think this guy is a rasha for "moving on", the irony is that had the positions been reversed, a woman indeed would be tied to such a man. A man in such a position would not be able to give a get.

Yep. Which is why I'm four-square behind pre-Nuptial agreements that could end that type of problem. Women ALSO need to move on.