S/O of “chill lkwd school” & “Oros” threads

amother

Thu, May 09 2024, 10:22 pm

Did you grow up in Lakewood and move out as an adult??
I did and it’s like out out of body experience to read these threads!!! I kept up all my “bais yaakov” (well, actually bais Kaila Wink

) standards. I don’t wear leggings or show hair but lots of people in my community do and we all send to the same school. It’s the type of thing I would see in the grocery and all over quite frankly, I’m just not busy looking for it. No one cares, no one judges. It’s a different world…
I still have a love for lkwd and maybe we’ll end up back there one day but I get this strange feeling reading those threads.. like low grade PTSD. Especially the driving thread… driving was blown so out of proportion IMO. In the town I live in the 11th and 12th grade girls have a keychain that says “bais ya’akov drivers” … ohhh the contrast ..

amother

Thu, May 09 2024, 10:48 pm

amother Maroon wrote:

It’s all relative. I moved to Lakewood from a different city that was traumatizing. BH my kids are thriving and I’m happy with my personal experiences.

Oh I totally believe you! Every city has its things .. I guess specifically something about the schools and the rigidity surrounding it. How 2 school can seem so so similar and yet the parent body in each school can list 15 ways they differ lol. And how the HS low key compete to be the frummest by instilling to most rules.. and I’m not a hater. I loved growing up there, these are just observations from someone who now sees other ways …

amother

Thu, May 09 2024, 10:50 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I didn't grow up in Lakewood. Overall moving to Lakewood (just after my wedding - I once spent a Shabbos in Lakewood, but otherwise, was not at all familiar before coming here) and living here has been a positive experience, but I have to say, I found adjusting to all the nuances and "rules" was difficult for me. I'm still myself to some extent - I have a strong independent streak. I think allover there are more rules these days than there used to be, and there are both positive and negative aspects to it. I wish life were simpler.

I feel the same! I’m thinking 613 is just the right amount of rules. Idk that we need to add to it

amother

Orchid

Thu, May 09 2024, 10:57 pm

I live in lakewood for about 8-9 years, moved here a couple of years after I got married. Honestly, Imamother always makes things extreme. I send to a school that is always mentioned on here as modern yet in real life it is so frum albeit not yeshivish. The extreme rules are not a thing in my circles. Peer pressure exists everywhere, but I really don’t feel it. My neighborhood is a mix (ie one neighbor yeshivish play group morah with 6 kids under 8 and the next one could be the OP of the chilled thread. All nice people.)

I’ll admit I was very hesitant to move to lakewood after hearing so many “horror stories”. But you know what, I came, saw it for myself and it’s fine. I got into school easily, I know plenty of people to the left and to the right of me, and I enjoy the conveniences. Life is extreme online. You need to live your own life to experience it.

amother

Crimson

Thu, May 09 2024, 10:59 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I could have written this! It took a very long time to get used to all the societal "rules" here, especially because most of them made no sense to me (still don't).

Just to weigh in on the BY driving rules in particular, I have to say the rules make no sense to me. It's not like if you start letting your 11th graders get licenses soon your 10th graders are going to want licenses too, and then your 9th graders etc etc. Literally most girls can't legally drive until they're at the end of 11th grade (or beginning of 12th). Just seems like a silly thing to make a big issue out of... But then again I'm not really from Lakewood so I probably don't get it.

amother

Thu, May 09 2024, 11:07 pm

amother Crimson wrote:

Devils advocate- I read somewhere that there were 5-10x the amount of fender benders and accidents in lkwd during bein hazmanim… lots of young drivers on the roads isn’t great, especially lkwd driving has become so aggressive. Even with that said I felt that’s it’s something that should be decided by each parent and not the school …

iamawesome

Fri, May 10 2024, 12:11 am

amother OP wrote:

That has to do with new inexperienced drivers. Age of the new drivers is pretty irrelevant. And girls are always here, it’s likely due to the boys coming back from yeshiva who haven’t driven since they left… having the girls not drive for a year will not affect the number of accidents. Sorry but this theory is pretty far fetched…

B'Syata D'Shmya

Fri, May 10 2024, 12:49 am

amother DarkGreen wrote:

Just a thought for all those about HS girls driving, as a parent my concerns are firstly safety- driving in this town is insane and I don't trust other drivers or putting a bunch of new teen drivers in a too small parking lot.
Secondly, there may not be pressured to drive younger but don't kid yourself there is pressure for girls to have access to a car especially if allowed to drive to school and given all the brand name pressure there is in every school even if it varies by school, no girl will want a jalopy.

THATS whats bothering me. Why is driving in Lkwd insane? Are the drivers that aggressive?
One would think that people with Torah values would drive appropriately.
And given the Torah values instilled in these girls, why the name brand pressure?
Do these things shtim with Torah values?
Or have we failed to really instill Torah values in our children?
Whether you agree or not, if the school has a rule and you allow your child to break it by getting a drivers license you havent helped your child one bit. I think the fact that these schools have to "punish" is sad. The parents have put the school in a bad position and their children are paying the price.
If its so important for your child to get a license, go speak to the menahel. Get the rule amended to what can be followed. But what Torah message has been imparted?
The same that turns people who wont touch their phones on Shabbos - into drivers that make the streets unsafe.

amother

DarkKhaki

Fri, May 10 2024, 2:50 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

Why not stick to bashing Lakewood and kollel in the other thread? No need for two threads to bash. Lakewood is a congested city since so many people want to live here. Small towns have no congestion and polite drivers. That used to be Lakewood. Unfortunately there is now gridlock and as in every other congested city drivers drive aggressively to get around. Yerushalayim, Beijing, Manhattan etc. Those that don’t aggressively make a turn or take the shoulder to turn right end up sitting it traffic for hours. It’s not ideal but it’s not unique to Lakewood, and it’s unrealistic to expect drivers to yield to each other and drive leisurely like a back town in Vermont.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Fri, May 10 2024, 2:58 am

amother DarkKhaki wrote:

Actually the author of "driving in lakewood is insane" was bashing Lkwd. I was just responding, not Chas VeShalom trying to hurt anyone...certainly not looking to bash anyone, Sorry if it came out that way.
Just wondering why people with Torah values would drive that way - including your addition. No one said it was unique to Lkwd. It can happen in Vermont too... but there you may get frowned upon.
Perhaps social pressure should work that way, drive nicely or get frowned upon...

BTW, Usually the aggressive drivers make the situation worse.

imasinger

Fri, May 10 2024, 5:00 am

A couple of points from an OOTer with family in Lakewood.

Re schools with rules. It seems to me like there is significant social pressure to attend a prestigious school. There aren't enough spaces to accommodate everyone who wants to come. And people can be leery of a new school, particularly if it might brand their child as "less than" in some ways.

That means both old and new schools are going to see an advantage to having strict rules -- the established places because it helps winnow, and preserves their reputation; and the new schools because it shows they're in the market to compete with the established schools.

IMNSVHO, if a student or family isn't going to be comfortable following the rules, they might be better off finding a different place, even if that means moving, or going to some school with less of a name. The pressures to be who you're not can be psychologically damaging in some cases. Know thyself.

That being said, the school system produces a high percentage of truly amazing young people. Overall, it's quite a success.

Re teen drivers.

1. In response to iamawesome, inexperience in new drivers is only one factor. Age apparently does make a difference as well; life experience and ability to judge less impulsively matter. Many states have graduated licensing laws exactly because it's established that (at least nationwide in the US) between 16 and 24, for each year of driver age, there are significantly fewer serious accidents. The statistics are readily available, and are reflected in insurance premiums for teen drivers. It's also known that teens can have an inflated idea of their competence on the road after a shorter time following licensure, and that a more realistic assessment of ability/experience can come with age.

2. In response to B'Syata D'Shmya and others, Lakewood can absolutely be a particularly challenging place to drive safely. I'm surprised anyone can find that an insulting comment. It's not a question of lack of middos. Here are what I think are relevant factors.

- The development of the roads has not kept up adequately with the explosive population growth, meaning certain roads are often severely congested, and the traffic flow leads to aggressive driving styles. You can't get from Point A to Point B if you wait until there are no cars coming.

- There is significant time pressure involved -- to get home from work or learning before the buses arrive, to get to work or learning on time, to have the kids where they need to go on time -- all of which are also a Torah value. People have a lot to juggle, and it's difficult to say that Torah values will suffice to counteract all the pressures on the road. It's easy to misjudge, particularly when tired, or stressed, or distracted by a screaming child, etc.

- There are areas with significant numbers of pedestrians, or hitchhikers, and inadequate safe crossings or sidewalks.

- There are more young children per capita than in many other places, including more young children who can surprise a supervising adult and end up running (or scootering) in the street of a development. A driver (or pedestrian) has to be constantly alert.

Lakewood a generation ago was a whole lot smaller and therefore the roads were a whole lot safer than it is today. The rules may make sense when considering all of the above.

My 2¢.

amother

Maroon

Fri, May 10 2024, 8:13 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

Because of the horrendous roads. When you have to turn into a very chaotic street you have to do it aggressively or you will sit there all day. It is so difficult to get in and out of anywhere. It’s hard to make the green light and you can sit by 4 reds before it’s clear enough to move, so people will try to make it even when it’s tight. It’s the infrastructure and overbuilding that lends to too few roads that are too narrow and only one way. It is so difficult to get anywhere and everyone is feeling too frustrated and running late because of it.