Husband does not learn with DS

imaonthepath

Fri, May 03 2024, 1:08 am

I have a few issues, all pertaining to DH. DH and I are both BT, but DH (who was never really a learner) is now fairly OTD. (I have BH managed to progress significantly in my learning, but DH never really wanted to change himself very much.) He tries to mask it somewhat, but the kids realize what's happening. I was kind of able to gloss over it with my DDs, but now our 10 y o DS is really feeling it. DH does not have the foundational knowledge to learn with DS, and is generally completely uninterested in parenting our son (doesn't ask DS anything about what he's learning in school, doesn't much converse with him). DS in turn has begun to really resent his father. DS is a super sweet boy, BH has beautiful middos, but his lack of learning is starting to show in school, plus, as an additional challenge, he has some mild executive functioning issues that are also impeding his learning (which be"H will be addressed in the therapy I am now pursuing for him). While I am not yet at the point of seriously pursuing divorce, DH's significantly less religious lifestyle, combined with his willful ignorance, is becoming problematic for my son. If anyone knows of any sensitive rabbeim who might be able to speak with my son and give him some chizzuk (DH has no real connection with any rabbi and we have no frum family to turn to), that would be very helpful. (We're in central NJ.) Any advice/thoughts are also definitely welcome.

WhatFor

Fri, May 03 2024, 1:24 am

I hope someone is able to recommend a rav for chizzuk for your DS, but do you think it might also be helpful to accept your DH's limitations find a learner who is willing to mentor/ take on your DS for learning? You may need to pay, but this clearly is affecting DS.

By the way, some learning disabilities are inherited and can be masked until challenged. Meaning it's even possible that DH has that disability and that's why he himself struggles, but he is able to get away with it until he needs to challenge himself with learning complex things in a new language. Yes, it's normal in the frum world for many fathers to learn with their sons, but not all can. And whatever is going on with DH, he's sadly not available to help here. If I were expected to study and teach accounting to my daughter every day, I'd probably feel like a failed mom and cry.

I get that there's much larger issues at play here though. Aside from the frumkeit thing, has DH always been disinterested in your children or did this specifically come up around DS, DS's schooling, and DH's failure in this aspect? If there's hope for him to be a good parent in other ways (meaning activities outside of academics), I'd try to encourage a relationship in those areas. If the bigger issue prevents this, then I'm very sorry. I hope you get the support you need because that sounds really hard.

amother

Clear

Fri, May 03 2024, 9:03 am

That is not unique to BT's. Many many many FFB struggle with the same scenario.

You can do it yourself. You don't need knowledge. Just parenting.

Sit with your son, lovingly and patiently and non critical if he is not a good learner yet, be encouraging and focus on the positive about what he can do and he reviews out loud what they learned in yeshiva. Buy English sefarim to assist you if he doesn't have all the information. The reviewing nightly and having good warm feelings around learning Torah are the two most important ingredients to set him up to succeedin the long run.

If you can afford to go to your shul Rabbi and ask that he help you find a tutor if you can afford it. At least once a week to help fill in gaps, or even an older bachur in mesivta or bais medrash who is suited can be less expensive.

amother

Lavender

Fri, May 03 2024, 10:00 am

WhatFor wrote:

I get that there's much larger issues at play here though. Aside from the frumkeit thing, has DH always been disinterested in your children or did this specifically come up around DS, DS's schooling, and DH's failure in this aspect? If there's hope for him to be a good parent in other ways (meaning activities outside of academics), I'd try to encourage a relationship in those areas. If the bigger issue prevents this, then I'm very sorry. I hope you get the support you need because that sounds really hard.

Absolutely agree with this, it is so important to figure out. With a frum ecosystem and extra support, your DS can compensate for both DH's disinterest in learning and even for his disinterest in observance. Other people can teach him skills and vocabulary. I would reach out to your local kollel too, if you have a community-oriented kollel in the area.

But the actual father-son relationship is more important and replacements are much less effective. Hopefully your DH and DS can still bond over other mutual interests: sports, games like chess or board games, puzzles, riding bikes, anything. Maybe officially taking the learning pressure off your husband will make it easier for him to develop a positive relationship with DS.

amother

DarkPurple

Fri, May 03 2024, 11:15 am

We are on a very tight budget. We rarely spend "extra" money on anything that isn't truly essential.

We are also FFBs and my husband learned in kollel for a while and has plenty of background. He is also a rebbe who specializes in working with challenging kids, including kids with behavioral or learning issues.

That said, we hired someone to learn with one of my sons in shul once or twice a week for a couple of years. Learning with dh was not working out. It was the best money I ever spent.

My other two sons did not need it. One learned beautifully on his own and would bike to a nearby shul and meet a friend there to learn sometimes. One is younger (11) and we would consider it in the future if he does need it, but right now he enjoys learning with dh and with a friend who lives close by.

imaonthepath

Fri, May 03 2024, 2:56 pm

amother Lavender wrote:

This is probably the bigger part of it. I don't think it's my son's skills that are lacking, per se. It's that he doesn't have a male role model, someone who he sees davening and learning, and so he's not really tuned into it himself. It's eating me up. DS is so aching for a father figure, and I am yearning for him to have someone to turn to (I wouldn't mind an actual partner myself, but that's another issue altogether.) The common interests between DH and DS are few (basically, DS has to like what my husband likes), and DS is not so eager to pursue them, given how he feels about his father in general. So it's a bit of a mess.

imaonthepath

Fri, May 03 2024, 2:59 pm

amother Lavender wrote:

And...DH has never been very hands-on. I have largely parented solo (somewhat due to DH's profession, but also due to his choices). But with girls, it's not as acute a problem.

amother

Lavender

Fri, May 03 2024, 3:04 pm

imaonthepath wrote:

DS is so aching for a father figure, and I am yearning for him to have someone to turn to (I wouldn't mind an actual partner myself, but that's another issue altogether.) The common interests between DH and DS are few (basically, DS has to like what my husband likes), and DS is not so eager to pursue them, given how he feels about his father in general. So it's a bit of a mess.

So sorry. That is really hard. Maybe they could try occasionally doing activities together that don't require much talking, like bowling, darts, rock climbing, yard work. Or even running errands, like to the grocery store, the dry cleaners, the hardware store. Or, even playing some pareve video games. And then maybe that would generate some positive vibes to build on.

Is your husband generally unhappy or even possibly depressed? Would he consider treatment for himself?

amother

Pistachio

Fri, May 03 2024, 3:32 pm

flowerpower wrote:

Many men don’t have the energy or time to learn with their sons sadly. They hire a guy to learn a few times a week with them instead.

Rav mattisyahu salomon held that it’s better for a father to hire someone to learn with their son than to do it themselves.
I have personally witnessed how fathers and sons learning together can completely ruin their relationships. And these were not BTs

The real issue that you are facing is the fact that your DH doesn’t seem to want a relationship

amother

Lavender

Fri, May 03 2024, 3:52 pm

amother Pistachio wrote:

This is off track from OP's point, but I think it is very important to distinguish between (1) learning necessary to master certain pre-determined content and/or build skills to a certain baseline level and (2) just learning with no expectations, pressure, or deadlines.

For the first kind, I agree that it will usually be better for a child to learn with a third party. This is the kind that rebbes spend most of their time on in school and the kind people are typically looking for when they hire someone to learn with their kid four times a week.

The second kind is a totally different ball game, and is wonderful to do with parents, as long as they don't try to turn it into the first kind or introduce any pressure.

Dolly Welsh

Fri, May 03 2024, 4:22 pm

Be nice and say nothing.

But: without saying anything or appearing upset, steer your husband in the direction of the nearest Chabad.

Or any other Rav who would be willing to take him on. I only mention Chabad because they are trained to talk to doubters and they will take on anybody at all who is halachically a Jew. They will not be judgmental or disgusted.

Every Jew needs a Rav. For a woman, that's her husband's rav. But every male adult Jew must, must, have a Rav, who is someone he would consider asking life's most terrible and dreadful questions, someone he views as his superior, if not in every way, in this way: someone he feels has the real connection to G-d and to Truth.

A Jew without a Rav goes nuts, as your husband has demonstrated.

Well that can be fixed. He must get a Rav. It says in Pirkei Avos, make for yourself a master. Meaning, you (he) has to do it.

OF COURSE it would be preferable for your husband to get friendly with a Rav connected with your shul and your kids' schools. Maybe that can still be made to happen.

Your womanly leadership: what they all see YOU doing.

Without making a big deal or making pronouncements, you could be seen visibly reading Pirkei Avos weekly, one chapter per week, as we are all doing now.

Innocently, discuss one sentence from each chapter with your husband. He should not know what you are doing. Ask him what he thinks about this one sentence?

Take your husband aside, when you are absolutely sure none of the kids can hear you, and say to him, "I get it you have doubts. But you have to keep that from the kids. We brought them into this world into a frum family, and that's who they are, and how they were born. Have your doubts in ways they can't see. It's not fair to them to give them mental confusions.

You knew what we were, when they got born.

It's not nice to them. None of your doubts are their fault. They don't deserve to have life complications, just because you do. And, that would be just as true if it were ME having the doubts. I, TOO, would keep that away from the kids."

I am BT.

amother

DarkMagenta

Fri, May 03 2024, 4:46 pm

My husband is a very well respected rabbi. No one would guess that he barely learns with our boys. Does it bother me? Yes… but it is what it is. He didn’t want to hire bar mitzvah tutors “I can learn with them myself” but he didn’t… they ended up cramming everything at the last minute. I work on myself a lot to accept this and appreciate the other ways he shows up as a father. I carry 95% of the mental load of the parenting. He has never called a rebbi, principal, camp counselor. Only me. When expressing my frustration He’ll say “give me the number and I’ll be happy to call”. He can find the number the same way I can.. but he’s a very good husband, father and human being. I don’t know why he’s like this because his father is not. So I just have to work on myself..

amother

Bronze

Fri, May 03 2024, 7:08 pm

Chavrusa- ie; tutor
Extremely common among boys of all frum circles.
Parents need to do enjoyable activities with children, spend time together, build relationship outside of religious obligations.
Help your husband and son find common ground chess, cars. Nature, gardening, hiking, model airplanes, coin collection .
Whatever..they must be some area of expertise or interest that hubby has that you can help son navigate with his father

imaonthepath

Sun, May 05 2024, 11:58 pm

Thanks, all. The irony is that we already daven at a Chabad shul, and have since DH and I got married. One problem is that he doesn't feel at all connected to the shul rabbi. There are a lot of issues here (DH had an awful childhood but resisted therapy, meds) but it is huge that he has never really had a rabbi. Unfortunately, I don't think there is much that is going to change, even slightly, with DH. He all but announces that the kids and I should be happy he provided parnassa all these years; anything more than that is asking too much.

I really just need to steer DS in the right direction, away from all the friction between him and DH and towards a place where he can develop some perspective on his relationship with his father and maybe see a role model who he might emulate instead. A tall order, I know, but if anyone knows of a rav (maybe with a mental health training background) who might be consulted, I would really appreciate it.

P.S. DS informed me that he would rather learn/review with me than with a chavrusa (!). So yes, I will definitely be"H make that part of our routine.

imaonthepath

Mon, May 06 2024, 12:01 am

Rappel wrote:

Regarding the learning:

My brother was mentored by a Rav who gave him his Torah boost and a safe space when he needed it

Now as an adult, he does the same for other boys.

It's a worthy option

Do you know someone in your circles whom can tutor your son? If not -- where do you live?

That would be an ideal solution. DS is wary of tutoring--I think he feels some shame/anger around this whole situation--but we live in central NJ, if you know of anyone.