Counselors at pesach program

sarahlieba

Wed, May 01 2024, 7:36 pm

My daughter and her friends just came back from a pesach program where they were working as counselors. I specifically asked the person who was in charge of the program who will do a Seder for the counselors. She said don’t worry they’ll have one - it will be most likely her husband. I just found out from my daughter that they didn’t have a Seder because they had to babysit. I am so livid that I’m ready to rip the person in charge to shreds. Has anyone has had any experience with something similar happening to them or their kids? Is this normal?? Is this acceptable?? Any advice? TIA

amother

Antiquewhite

Wed, May 01 2024, 7:52 pm

That’s terrible! Echoing the other posters that this isn’t acceptable. I just came back from a program that we’ve attended multiple years and they always make clear that the counselors aren’t available to babysit on seder nights. The counselors had their sedarim in the dining room alongside everyone else.

amother

Bisque

Wed, May 01 2024, 9:07 pm

amother Honey wrote:

…who will shrug it off and say it’s not his department, and that you should take it up with whoever hired the counselors. (My husband is a baal machshir and he wouldnt have anything to do with it. That’s not their department.)

Maybe the baal machshir should threaten to pull the hashgacha because of this.

amother

Cerise

Wed, May 01 2024, 9:09 pm

amother Bisque wrote:

Maybe the baal machshir should threaten to pull the hashgacha because of this.

No one really cares. You need someone with yirei shamayim and many of these places are lacking in this area. I don't think it's a smart idea to send girls alone on such ventures, let alone the seder angle.

amother

Opal

Wed, May 01 2024, 9:25 pm

amother Chocolate wrote:

Speak to the Rav hamachshir.

That is absolutely the wrong person to talk to! My husband was rav hamachshir for many years and only dealt with kashrus and eruv.

You have to speak to person who runs the hotel program and head of babysitters. Unfortunately even if they apologize, it won't change much for your dd and might not make any difference for next year! It might not be the same staff in charge.
That's is so upsetting. Definitely talk to the person who told you they would have a seder. That's an adult taking advantage of vulnerable girls there without a parent, it's terrible!
Teach your dd to stand up for herself so it never happens again.

kiwi strawberry

Wed, May 01 2024, 11:52 pm

amother Poppy wrote:

Parents don't keep their kids with the family during the seder?

If you have babies or little kids and your room is like on the fifth floor/an 8 minute walk from your table in the dining room you can't be both at the seder table and watching your sleeping babies/putting your little ones to sleep in middle of the seder easily. So someone has to watch them while you're at your seder. Hence the babysitters.

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, May 02 2024, 12:48 am

You can't go back in time and change what happened, but use the opportunity to use this as a good teaching moment to role play with your daughter how she could have stood up for herself.
(Did they at least eat matzah and maror? Speak to a Rav, maybe she should be makpid to have on pesach sheini).
As parents, if a girl was babysitting for us, my husband and I would have casually asked when their seder was, and if they didn't have t I would have sent them to go have one. It's really shocking how they just slipped through with no one caring to check.

sarahlieba

Thu, May 02 2024, 4:41 am

OP here. Thank you so much everyone for a wonderful feedback. I’m definitely going to talk to the organizer who hired the counselors. I have no issue telling how I feel. I want this to be a lesson for her NOT to ever do this to anyone else. And to really understand how wrong she was even though most likely she will not fully grasp it or will not care.
Apparently on top of that, she was very rude to all counselors.

amother

Chambray

Thu, May 02 2024, 5:12 am

Years ago when I was a 12th grader, I went to one of the most reputable programs as a counselor and it was a horror show. We were tricked into everything. There were 8 of us in one room with 2 beds. We had to do breakfast and lunch with the campers and dinner had to be at our one staff table. We were not paid, we had to pay our own way to get there but we were promised a certain amount of money in tips and nights off. Then we got there and were shocked to learn that we had to work at night also as private babysitters and the parents were told it was a free extra service and tipping was optional. I worked most nights because I was forced to and made zero dollars.

The final night of the chametz BBQ, we were not allowed to circulate among the parents because it was seen as tacky and trying to get tips, but those who knew better from previous years did so anyway and seems they were tipped.

I'll never forget this. The camp was "free" to parents (ie built into the price of the program) but suggested tip was $50/kid, which was supposed to go to the director and then split evenly among the staff. I worked in a group with 60 kids and 6 staff. I walked out with $35, and my plane tickets there/back was over $200 but I was assured all staff came out $500 on top.

There was a mix of jewish and non-jewish staff at the camp, but guess who never showed up on the YT days? Only the frum staff.

Seders - we had to go to the mandatory staff seder which was crazy fast, no time to eat the meal, and then we had to babysit.

I've heard many episodes on halacha headlines about how these programs are halachically problematic from a kashrus standpoint, but no one addresses the issues with how the staff is treated. For us, it was a bait and switch. Horrible.

amother

Chambray

Thu, May 02 2024, 5:16 am

kiwi strawberry wrote:

This really should be part of the cheshbon when someone decides to go to a program like this. If you are not going to keep your kids with you at the table, and you are going to expect a frum employee to babysit them during seder time, then you are willfully making the staffer your korban so you can enjoy the seder.

I'm sorry but this is one of the sacrifices that come along with going away to a hotel for pesach.

amother

Coral

Thu, May 02 2024, 5:46 am

Actually the organization I worked for had a "children's dining room". The counselors would eat/feed the kids there. This was considered normal in "upper class" society. I was horrified that such a concept existed for a Shabbaton and I told them it's not an option at all not even for 1 meal. I actually sat with the organizers and a school principal to discuss how to make it work for everyone. We agreed that Madrichot are not allowed to enter the hotel rooms EVER. This was to protect them and their reputation. Before I had come there had been a few questionable incidents on the Shabbatonim and I wanted to protect the girls, their reputation, and the organization. Just think about this - your daughter can be babysitting alone in a hotel room at 1:00 on a YT night and the father of the kids can just walk into the room? The teenage son can also just pop - really it's soooo unsafe.
Everyone adapted to the new style, either their babies slept in strollers, or the parents alternated going to different activities/shiurim if the kid was sleeping or they were able to hire a non-Jewish babysitter through the hotel.

amother

Gardenia

Thu, May 02 2024, 5:47 am

I've been on programs many times over the years, every single one has made it crystal clear that the frum staff are NOT available for babysitting during Sedarim or other Yom tov meals. You had to either hire a non Jewish babysitter to watch sleeping kids in the room, or figure out something else (like putting your baby to sleep in the stroller or whatever). This is not normal, every program I've been on, the Jewish staff had a proper seder/Yom tov dinner every night of Yom tov. Also every program I've been on, the camp took a lunch break, you had to take your kids for lunch and bring them back afterwards.

amother

Chambray

Thu, May 02 2024, 5:52 am

amother Gardenia wrote:

So this may be the difference between a program that is looking out for the staff as well as for their wallet, compared to the ones who just want to make as much money as possible.

The ones who hire special non-Jewish staff to babysit are paying for this expense, maybe charging extra for it, maybe not. The one like I worked for - the frum staff was free for them aside from the expense of the one hotel room for 8 of us and the food we ate. Forcing us to babysit at night for free as opposed to them hiring the non-Jewish staff to come back in the evenings was one of the ways they made more money for themselves.