Moshav Matityahu | Imamother

chavamom

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 1:50 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Several points:

On a moshav people most certainly own their land and homes; the difference is there may be a committee to approve or disapprove of someone who wants to buy it, so you can't sell it to just anyone.

I beg to differ as a former Moshav member. We became members and received a house as part of the membership. We didn't buy it and we couldn't sell it when we left, neither the house or the land. I understand that it works a bit differently today, and yes, people have built big houses, but they NEVER own the land and it is problematic to sell the house.

shalhevet

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 1:58 pm

chavamom wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Well maybe Mattityahu is different. I know for a fact that people sell their houses on moshavim. You said you received your house (ie didn't buy it), so maybe it belongs to the yishuv and they lend it to their members.

Inspired

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 2:07 pm

chavamom wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Thanks chava, that is how I remembered it being. I wasn't imagining things.

shalhevet

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 2:19 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

Ruchel, you have halacha and minhag mixed up.

Is that a MO put down? I don't understand what you mean.

Of course.

(Note: please note English sarcasm, before I get flamed for this too.)

Quote:

How much hair to show is a psak halacha, eating kitnios on Pesach is a family minhag.

How much hair to show comes from how you cover. How you cover is a family minhag. If you're only allowed to cover every single hair, the braid girls and the hat girls for example will have to dump their minhag.

Sorry, but it's just not true. My mother and my grandmother don't/ didn't cover their hair, so does that make it my family minhag?? If you ask (almost?) all chareidi rabbonim they will tell you you have to cover all your hair, whatever eida/ background you come from. Yes, the braid girls also have to cover all their hair because it is halacha and not minhag.

Minhagim are things people do that are not halachically required. No one says 'ashkenazim were machmir to define peas as chometz' because no one thinks peas are chometz. Everyone knows the reason for kitnios is not 'being strict' about chometz. There are other reasons.

Other examples of minhagim: how many dips in the mikva - everyone knows once is enough halachically (okay 2 solves a halachic problem about the bracha, but not about tevilla); if boys make kiddush too - everyone knows the boys can be yotzei with their father; eating particular foods on Shabbos/ YT - no one thinks cheescake or blintzes are a halachic requirement on Shavuos. etc. etc.

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Even if you are Sephardi and you didn't eat rice in your family for several generations, it won't help to ask a rav.

Actually I'm aware of some people who were allowed to take on their mother's minhagim, when she was the one doing the religious education.

Allowed by who? Was their father Jewish/ frum?

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But I said, on contrary, to keep the minhagim, contrary to Moshav Matitiahu. NOT to try to get rid of them.

Look, I've never been to MM (though I've been very close). I think chavamom explained very clearly that only the rav's psak in halacha was enforced, and not minhagim.

Quote:

And this is the way almost all communities were run for hundreds of years until mass emigration to the US, Europe and EY (when different minahagim/ communities got mixed together). There was a mara d'asra, whether you lived in Lithuania, Yemen, Tunisia or Poland AND YOU JOLLY WELL LISTENED TO HIM IF YOU WANTED TO BE PART OF THE KEHILLA.

HUh? Isn't that JUST what I said? That it's like that when you come from the same community?

No. I was saying that people obeyed the rav of where they lived. Period. Not where there grandparents lived.

chavamom

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 2:43 pm

shalhevet wrote:

chavamom wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

There are some moshavim that have become privatized and then they can sell, but it's not simple. Mattityahu has been working on it for YEARS, literally. They thought it was "just around the corner" 14 years ago.

Ruchel

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 3:34 pm

Quote:

Sorry, but it's just not true. My mother and my grandmother don't/ didn't cover their hair, so does that make it my family minhag??

In general I would say no.
Show me the same for 10+ generations and that's different.

Quote:

If you ask (almost?) all chareidi rabbonim they will tell you you have to cover all your hair, whatever eida/ background you come from. Yes, the braid girls also have to cover all their hair because it is halacha and not minhag.

All the categories of Jews who happen to not cover every single hair because their traditional kissui rosh just don't cover it are wrong?
I think if nowadays all charedi, or almost all, cover everything, is because either it's their minhag, or they adopted the mainstream Ashk. minhag. The extra ultra frum women before covered the traditional way, whatever it was in their rite, and that was enough.

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Allowed by who? Was their father Jewish/ frum?

By a priest. HUm. BY THEIR RAV.
As I said the father wasn't at all meddling in it.

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No. I was saying that people obeyed the rav of where they lived. Period. Not where there grandparents lived.

They kept their minhagim. That's why you still have "foreign" enclaves in some places, after centuries, or just some differences, or no differences but they died down after generations.

shalhevet

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 3:46 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

Sorry, but it's just not true. My mother and my grandmother don't/ didn't cover their hair, so does that make it my family minhag??

In general I would say no.
Show me the same for 10+ generations and that's different.

Quote:

It is a halacha NOT a minhag. If someone asks a rav what to do, he will tell them based on his understanding of the SA and its nosei keilim down to modern piskei halacha NOT on what the woman's grandmother did. AFAIK if 100 women go to the same rav - one is from Poland, one is from Yemen, one is from Lithuania, one is from Syria etc, he will tell them ALL to cover the same amount of hair according to his understanding of the halacha. There may be differences though in how it can be covered. Almost all chareidi women cover all their hair BECAUSE THAT IS THE HALACHA THEY ARE TAUGHT. Can't you see this is different from the Tunisian family eating rice on Pesach? No one thinks Ashkenazim are more machmir because they don't do so, or Sephardim are more machmir for saying Selichot from Rosh Chodesh Elul.

And if you still don't get it - I give up.

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Allowed by who? Was their father Jewish/ frum?

By a priest. HUm. BY THEIR RAV.
As I said the father wasn't at all meddling in it.

I guess it was a special case.

Quote:

No. I was saying that people obeyed the rav of where they lived. Period. Not where there grandparents lived.

They kept their minhagim. That's why you still have "foreign" enclaves in some places, after centuries, or just some differences, or no differences but they died down after generations.

[/quote]

Maybe some kept different minhagim from their place of origin, but believe me, when they had a halachic shaila the Sharabi family didn't email it back to their rav in Yemen, but went to ask Rabbi Yankotowitz, the mara d'asra, what to do.

Ruchel

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 4:12 pm

Quote:

I say, in my and people around me's experience, it depends about what you ask. And of course about the grandma. Let's say not grandma, but 10 generations ago when virtually everyone was frum.

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AFAIK if 100 women go to the same rav - one is from Poland, one is from Yemen, one is from Lithuania, one is from Syria etc, he will tell them ALL to cover the same amount of hair according to his understanding of the halacha.

Really?
Ok, then I think I see where is the misunderstanding.
Because in my experience, as well as others I know, one of the first questions for a shaila on this will be "where are you from, do you have a rite". If you don't know, you'll be told to inquire, or ask a rav of your origin. If really there's nothing found, or no rav of your rite is found, or no special thing about this in your rite, you'll be told the mainstream stuff.

Many other things are also rite dependent. I feel blessed I have rabbis who are respectful of this. Maybe it's cultural? or just luck?

Quote:

There may be differences though in how it can be covered. Almost all chareidi women cover all their hair BECAUSE THAT IS THE HALACHA THEY ARE TAUGHT. Can't you see this is different from the Tunisian family eating rice on Pesach?

Really? No.

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No one thinks Ashkenazim are more machmir because they don't do so, or Sephardim are more machmir for saying Selichot from Rosh Chodesh Elul.

I never said it or thought it.

Quote:

Maybe some kept different minhagim from their place of origin, but believe me, when they had a halachic shaila the Sharabi family didn't email it back to their rav in Yemen, but went to ask Rabbi Yankotowitz, the mara d'asra, what to do.

Of course when there was something new they had to ask the local rav. Kashrus, kissui rosh, etc, was not new.

greentiger

Wed, Nov 05 2008, 10:17 am

chavamom wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Don't people never really own the land their house is on all over Israel?

greentiger

Wed, Nov 05 2008, 10:29 am

chavamom wrote:

greentiger wrote:

chavamom wrote:

greentiger wrote:

Similarly if a woman were to walk around with a tefach of hair uncovered I doubt anyone would say anything, though if she would uncover altogether she probably would.

No, it would be an issue. As would someone having a TV or any of the other issues that you sign an agreement to agree to uphold while you live there.

Not to be nitpicky or start spreading a bad name about the moshav but I know at least one family there that own tv. No one is rushing to kick them out. In addition not everyone who lives there sends their kids to BYs.

As a former member, I'm going to bet the TV is "in the closet" iykwim. You sure it's not a video monitor? That actually *is* allowed, but not TV/cable. If it was know they had a television (not a dvd player and "monitor") it would be an issue. It's part of the agreement you sign to live there and yes, you do get called on it if you don't comply.

If I know, without living there then I am sure its not much of a secret. Although I agree that noone would display 20" plasmas in their living rooms Wink

Basicly, I guess my point was that either you fit in or you don't. If you fit in and contribute to the comunity, you have a good chance of being voted in and allowances are made for you, yet even if you fit all the criteria, follow the rav to the last letter, but your family causes trouble or there are other problems then you will be asked to leave.