Shabbat is not Thanksgiving

grace413

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 2:12 am

"As a giyores, I believe it 100%. Kiruv pros are all sunshine and roses about Shabbos, but if they don't let on about how much work it takes, the idea of making Thanksgiving twice a week is beyond overwhelming for a formerly secular woman!

And the BT husband was probably expecting a Shabbaton every week. The poor wife!" - from another thread.

This topic has been bothering me for a long time.

Why are women making Thanksgiving type meals every Shabbat?

I love to eat (and it shows). I grew up in a home where Friday night was chicken soup, chicken, salad, potato kugel and cake. Shabbat lunch was gefilte fish, cholent, salad, cake. And everybody was satisfied and full.

My mother as a child would have been thrilled to have that menu, as they didn't have enough money for it.

I vary my menu a bit more, have adopted the Israeli custom of a salads course. I almost never make two main. More likely a second side.

Women are crumbling over the burden of working, raising children and being expected to produce Thanksgiving type meals twice a week. Time for women to understand that Shabbat meals are supposed to be about spending time with family, divrei Torah, zemiros and company as well as tons of food. I'm so sad to see women running themselves ragged and not enjoying Shabbat.

Tzedek Tirdof

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 3:00 am

grace413 wrote:

I am sorry, but this quote was taken completely out of context. The difficulty and expectations of Shabbos of a newly-married BT are immense. When you go through the Kiruv process, you are indeed treated to lavish Shabbatons and meals that you process as being the norm. Even the most simple meals are still much more complex than you would likely make as a single person. Add to that the expectations of a BT DH who was also exposed to these lavish meals. It does not compare to someone like you, an FFB, who grew up experiencing Shabbos. Often newly-married BTs are completely on their own. Once married, they are often no longer under the wing of a Rebbetzin, and they have secular/non-Jewish (if Gerim) parents and siblings who aren’t able to show them the ropes.

I understand the point of your thread, but taking that quote from a giyores out of context was unnecessary IMHO.

This is the link to the other thread, which was about divorce, not Shabbos meal planning, for others who may be interested: https://www.imamother.com/foru.....23146

Last edited by Tzedek Tirdof on Wed, Aug 09 2023, 3:03 am; edited 1 time in total

realtalk ↓

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 3:17 am

A very simple shabbos is still more work than a weekday meal unless you regularly have 2-3 course meals. And for the vast majority of working women, that's without a full day off the prepare.

But mostly the biggest thing is that growing up without shabbos makes the prep each week that much harder. I grew up having maybe 3 times a year where the house needed to be clean and there was a bigger dinner with guests and all of those times were either a holiday or a Sunday so we were home all day preparing. Now, every week by Friday at sunset, I need to have a clean house and enough food for 25hrs prepped, elaborate or not but it isn't just pizza in a toaster oven.

Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 3:55 am

realtalk wrote:

It goes without saying Shabbos preparation do take time and energy.
Still a gioret is supposed to understand this before she undergoes giyur.
See it as a positive thing, thousand of women so Shabbos preparation, why shouldn't you be able to?

shabbatiscoming ↓

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 4:05 am

realtalk wrote:

ANd I look at it the other way, I dont make 3 course meals for shabbat, we have one course, sometimes soup on a freezing friday night, but other wise we have one course. And it is very lichvod shabbat. But realistically, nobody needs so many courses and sides that so many women slave over.

thinkpositive

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 4:24 am

As an FFB I've grown up with beautiful weekly shabbos meals, and continue to do so in my own home.
As time has gone on (frum magazines influences and perhaps encouragement/peer pressure) the meals I'm serving have gone up a number of notches.
But in more recent times as I'm watching my weight, I'm eating the main course only, yet serving multiple courses to family and guests.
Of course everyone could manage and be satiated on the main course only (like I am), but it's become the norm for me to serve multiple courses, each including multiple dishes.
I am a foodie and love making different menus, so am happy to have a crowd to serve, even if I am only partaking in one of the courses.

Raisin ↓

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 4:51 am

It could be as much work, especially if you make your own challa and dessert and are not buying ready made foods. A typical meal involves challa. gefilta fish, at least one salad, several dips. Then chicken soup, with maybe matza balls or lokshen. Then chicken, at least one kugel or side, a veg side dish. Dessert.

I host a lot and don't make that many courses but it still takes me from thursday night to get ready for shabbos. Even during covid when I wasn't hosting it still took me time (maybe more because I didn't have cleaning help)

Newcastle ↓

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 5:00 am

thinkpositive wrote:

So you’re saying that things that are difficult for others, come easy for you. Great!
Not ever has the same energy levels, abilities, time, etc.

myname1

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 7:12 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

If you don't mind sharing, what do you typically serve? I'd love ideas of simple yet nice and we're mostly not such big eaters, so all the courses really seem like overkill.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 7:19 am

myname1 wrote:

If you don't mind sharing, what do you typically serve? I'd love ideas of simple yet nice and we're mostly not such big eaters, so all the courses really seem like overkill.

Chicken with either rice or couscous or sometimes smashed potatoes.
Friday night steamed veggies, day time a big fresh salad. Sometimes one other salad. And thats it. My family like that.
Here and there we will have roast or meat balls on friday night or shnitzel or deli roll to change it up. But thats about it.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 7:23 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Nobody needs, that's correct. However one as supposed to eat better food than on weekdays in order to honour Shabbos. For me a soup wouldn't cut it at all as I do one course on weekdays.

zoom

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 7:29 am

Raisin wrote:

That could be a typical meal for you.
But people can do way less and its still shabbosdik.

Im worried that even just this thread is raising the bar.

Basics one can buy challa and fish.
Soup chicken and potatoes or kugel.
And buy dessert.

Not every shabbos meal needs dips and salads.

Even some of our basic meals are still good enough.

ora_43 ↓

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 7:41 am

I think "like Thanksgiving" is usually a wild overstatement, but OTOH, what are people supposed to compare to? There's no real modern-day equivalent outside the frum world, there's nothing between 'weeknight dinner' and 'holiday.'

Like, I feel like a couple generations ago you could have said 'Sunday night dinner' and it would be like 'ah OK got it' but for most non-Jews these days Sunday night dinner isn't particularly special.

Anyway. Shabbat isn't like Thanksgiving, but it's still a lot to get used to even if you make simple meals. It takes a while to get from 'never done this before' to 'can whip up Shabbat in 90 minutes.'

In the context of the thread being quoted here, I think the main issue is that when the dh saw how much his wife was struggling, he saw it as a failure on her part to live up to his expectations, rather than a problem for the two of them to deal with together. That says a lot about him as a husband.

Cookiegirl

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 7:43 am

I have the utmost respect for Ba'alei Teshuva, and I understand how Shabbos is a draw. However, I am a bit mystified by the original quote...yes, perhaps the Shabbos meals they joined were lavish (certainly compared to whatever they may have been used to for a eeekend), but how did they think those meals happened? Made by elves? Most kiruv couples are not wealthy and don't have workers...even "regular" people who host may not have extensive help. If they experienced what felt to them like Thanksgiving level meals, they could do the math in their heads, as they know what that entails.

That being said, if that is how anyone wants to honor or elevate Shabbos, they figure out how to make it work. It doesn't need to be over the top from a labor perspective even if there is a lot to do. Just like with other elements of "frumkeit" they can and should ask for tips and guidance from their mentor- this is a very practical area and possibly easier to explain than many other things....

As far as the topic at hand, each family should decide how they want to arrange Shabbos meals and do it. I do get the very real peer pressure, but Ba'alei Teshuva are very accustomed to going against the grain. It takes a lot of strength to walk that path. And if you say there is pressure for them to "pass" and fit in, if they are newly married it's part of adjusting to married life and they can figure out what works for them with a realistic view of their capabilities at the moment. They can "grow into it." If they are expecting to host non stop...then yes, I think Thanksgiving is a good example of what it can feel like...in the beginning! Not forever...

ra_mom

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 7:51 am

grace413 wrote:

That's a lot of food to cook all at once, yes almost like Thanksgiving. Simple good food.

Turkey or chicken
Kugel or pie
Cholent or stuffing
Soup
Salads
Fish
Cake

I can see what they mean

↑ ora_43 ↓

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 7:58 am

I do think that the criticism of kiruv families was unfair. In general hosts aren't going to tell their guests "just fyi it is SO MUCH of a hassle to have you over." That's rude in any culture. So, not going out of your way to tell people it's hard to make Shabbat isn't devious or misleading.

IME most people who work in kiruv are more than happy to give details of exactly what's involved if anyone asks.

There's also the issue that people differ wildly on this, and the people drawn to kiruv tend to be energetic and organized - ie to be the type to genuinely find making Shabbat easier.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Wed, Aug 09 2023, 8:04 am

The main difficulty of hosting on Thanksgiving isn't cooking a lot of food. It's:

- cooking dishes that take a long time + so have to be planned very carefully (IE a massive turkey)

- cooking a lot of dishes that each take a bit of extra effort (stuffing is harder to make than rice, pie is harder to make than cake, etc - it adds up)

- cooking a lot of things you don't usually cook (who eats cranberry sauce or pumpkin pie on a weekly basis?)

- multiple options for every course, because there are like 7 side dishes and 3 desserts that are all 'traditional'

- hosting a whole bunch of people, some of whom might be coming from out of state and need to be put up for multiple nights

- coming up with stuff for people to do before and after the meal, since it's expected to be a full-day event

Some people make Shabbat this complicated every week. But realistically, if you're not a kiruv family hosting a dozen people every week, your Shabbat is probably significantly less complex than the average thanksgiving.