Girls going to shul rosh hashona and yom kippur

amother

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 6:39 pm

In Williamsbourg there is a paper that comes out every day with some news and articles, it's called "eishes chail- dvar yom beyomo"
every week they post a diferent question, people react to the question and then they post the most important answers

this weeks question was: do older girls go to shul ???

88% wrote that girls should go to shul and daven
12% answered that they shouldn't go

one of the ladies (probably a married woman with little kids) answered that she thinks olders girls don't have to go to shul, they should rather let their married siblings go and watch their kids. She claims that they had to watch over their little sisters when they were grils, now it's their turn to give back and watch their kids

personally I think that a mother should sit home with her children and let the girls (her younger sisters) daven in shul. A mother could always daven at home, just go to shul for the tkios.
I'm not talking about a big girl who has to babysit her own little sisters and brothers and let her mother go to shul.

what do u think???

greenfire

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 6:45 pm

personally il think if a mother has kids - she should watch them ... if a sister has kids - she should watch them ... if and when the girls have kids - then they should in turn watch them ... kids should not have to be mothers to kids ...

the basic training and chinuch however should be that everybody goes to shul so long as there is not an infant or kranky toddler involved ... and learn to daven ...

curly

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 10:36 pm

I think girls should go to shul. Later on they will have to stay with thier own kids at home. although I believe their can be flexibility like go for most of the davening and then take care of kids for someone for a little bit.

mumsy23

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 10:41 pm

I agree with greenfire - Mothers should watch their children and every one else should go to shul. Sisters should not be made to watch their siblings so that their mother can go to shul. A mother is considered a truda and if she has to stay home from shul because of small children, that is okay because at that point in her life, her tafkid is her children - more so than davening in shul. This does not apply to a younger sister or older sibling who watches her siblings - the chiyuv on them is to daven and it is not lifted because they have a sister or mother who needs their babysitting services.

Sometimes when my mother-in-law is by me or I am by her I feel resentful that she does not offer to watch my daughter in shul so that I can daven. Then I remind myself that in this point in our lives, my mil is obligated to daven and I (if I can't) am not. Therefore, it is inappropriate for me to expect her to give up her chiyuv for me who is not michuyav, kwim?

amother

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 11:02 pm

I miss those days of sitting in shul davening uninterupted and feeling fullfilled and connected with Hashem. But now my tafkid is to take care of my kids and daven with many interuptions B'H . Each stage in life has its job and girls should be in shul davening learning how to connect so that when they are mothers they feel the connection to daven even when they cant get out to shul. Mothers are suppossed to take care of their own kids period. and their older daughters should be in shul davening not watching siblings . How do we teach children connecting with Hashem if we expect them to stay home and do their mothers job instead of the tafkid of their stage in life?

Mommy3.5

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 11:03 pm

I wonder, since the younger siblings are supposed to be "giving back" to the older ones, who will give back when the younger ones are married? Rolling Eyes

The older ones were doing Kibud av v'aim, Helping so their MOTHER could go to shul. There is no mitzva, to give back to an older sister, who was doing her chiyuv in Kibud Av V'aim.

I have a 16 year old SIL, Who tells me all the time that she loves it when we come (as opposed to other SIL's) because when we come she knows she won't be expected to babysit all shabbat morning and afternoon while I sleep, And she will not have to set and clear by herself.

Some people have forgotten how much a 16 year old is expected to do before you count the free babysitting.

If you are adult enough to make the babies, then you NEED to be adult enough to take care of their needs, even on RH and YK. If it's very important to you to Daven, HIRE a babysitter.

shalhevet

Wed, Sep 12 2007, 2:02 am

I agree with everyone here.

From bas mitzva a girl should be able to go to shul and not have to babysit. (The only exception would be on YK if someone needs her to babysit so they can fast eg a pregnant/ nursing woman who needs help.)

My oldest is 13 and I do not expect her to babysit instead of being in shul. The next is 11.5, so I will split with her being in shul and looking after the little ones. But next year, iy"H, she will be in shul.

As everyone said, they have a chiyuv to daven. It's me who has a chiyuv to look after my children.

Mama Bear - why 16? From bas mitzva they have a chiyuv to daven, just as much as anyone else.

suomynona

Sat, Sep 15 2007, 4:02 pm

My mother never made us stay home from shul so that she would be able to go. Even pre-bas mitzva, iirc. It was her job to stay home with her children, and our job to daven in shul.

Slightly off topic, but I'm thinking of asking my sister who will be staying over on yom kippur not to go to shul until my my husband gets home (from vasikin - so that's about 10-10:30ish). I'll be at the beginning of my 9th month and am very nervous about how I will manage taking care of my son while fasting. Is it right of me to ask her that?

shalhevet

Sat, Sep 15 2007, 4:15 pm

suomynona wrote:

Slightly off topic, but I'm thinking of asking my sister who will be staying over on yom kippur not to go to shul until my my husband gets home (from vasikin - so that's about 10-10:30ish). I'll be at the beginning of my 9th month and am very nervous about how I will manage taking care of my son while fasting. Is it right of me to ask her that?

I think you are right to ask her. Your chiyuv to fast (midoraisa) is greater than her chiyuv to daven with a minyan (no chiyuv at all). I don't think you should feel bad about arranging it that she helps out while your husband is in shul, especially as by davenning vasikin he will be home a good part of the time that your son is awake. At the same time I think you should try and occupy your son with activities where you can sit/lie down so that she can daven, at least for as long as he is prepared to cooperate.

Raisin

Sat, Sep 15 2007, 4:31 pm

I would think you would be feeling fine earlier in the day. (although maybe you want to have someone around in case you go into labour) I would try and make sure someone is there later in the day.

If you just want someone to be around, she could daven in your house anyway.

Isramom8

Sun, Sep 16 2007, 5:54 am

Younger siblings do have a mitzvah to give kavod to older ones. They benefit directly when the older siblings care for them.

Maybe the older sibs' kids will help watch the younger sibs' older kids in years to come. Following?

Under age , say, 14 or 15, most girls aren't actually davening for all those hours in shul. They might be happy with the diversion of watching younger sibs for a shift so that the mother can sit in shul for a couple of hours.

I think that every mother-daughter pair should communicate honestly and plan what works for them.

Our teenage daughters both daven the entire davening in shul already. One told me to focus on my own davening while she offered to help her 8 year old sister daven. I felt nachas that she offered. For the little ones, this year I had the luxury of hiring a babysitter we know and trust. Otherwise I would have stayed home with them unless one of our older daughters sincerely wanted to babysit for a shift.

Is Israeli culture different in that older sisters are expected to take more childcare responsibility, or does it work that way in America too with large frum families?

amother

Sun, Sep 16 2007, 7:16 am

Quote:

Maybe the older sibs' kids will help watch the younger sibs' older kids in years to come. Following?

slightly off topic yet on topic at the same time. I was one of those younger sisters.
I was never expected to stay home and watch nieces and nephews while their mothers went to shul but I was expected to babysit and help out and when my sister slept over one shabbos she was mad at me that I went out to meet my friends rather then let her have a nap and watch her kids.

I always thought I'd get some back when my nieces and nephews were older but... nada. None of my nieces or nephews are on the ready beck and call when I need a babysitter or some help, the way I was for their parents. I sometimes wonder about my sibling's memories, that they don't try and educate their kids otherwise.
One time I gave up a pesach vacation because my sil's back was out and I had to care for her family and a childcare group she had running from home.
think she remembers?

miriamnechama

Sun, Sep 16 2007, 7:20 am

I have a rebetzen who tells me always a mothers place rh and yk is at home.

I know if friends who used to ask their mothers to watch the siblings while they went to shul and their mothers would say no now is your turn to be in shul, soon when you haev your own children you wont be able to go to shul to take the opportunity now.