How Pious Should You Be?

Ozmom ↓

Sun, Oct 31 2004, 4:06 am

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How Pious Should You Be?
By Yanki Tauber

"You're holy, but you stink!" That's what the village children would yell at the bechor (first-born animal) who would often be seen wandering about the shtetel.

(According to Torah law, the firstborn young of a kosher domestic animal must be brought as an offering in the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. Even when conditions do not allow this -- as has been the case since the Temple's destruction more than 1900 years ago -- the firstborn animal retains its sacred status, and it is forbidden to eat it or make use of it in any way. In the shtetel, where raising a few head of cattle or a small herd of goats was common practice, these animals would run loose, getting into everything and wreaking general havoc. And since they could not be shorn or groomed, their stench was quite unbeareable).

The lesson in this is that something holy can also stink. You might be this really pious guy, but if people hold their noses when you walk by, you're doing something wrong. In the words of one of the greatest sages in Jewish history, Rabbi Judah HaNassi: "Which is the right path for a person to choose for himself? What is harmonious for the one who does it, and harmonious for one's fellow man."

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In the 29th chapter of Genesis we read of Jacob's marriages to Leah and Rachel.

Jacob had fallen in love with Rachel, the younger of his uncle Laban's two daughters. Laban agrees to give him Rachel's hand in marriage in return for seven years' labor. Jacob keeps his side of the bargain, but Laban tricks him: the veiled bride given to Jacob is Rachel's older sister, Leah, and Jacob discovers the deception only the next morning. Laban agrees to let him marry Rachel, too, in return for another seven years of shepherding his flocks.

Marrying more than one wife was common practice in biblical times, and permissible under Jewish law until a rabbinical ordinance forbade it about one thousand years ago. But the Torah expressly forbids to marry two sisters. And while the laws of the Torah were officially commanded to Jewish people at Mount Sinai many years after Jacob's marriages, the Talmud tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob observed the Torah even before it was decreed at Sinai. So why did Jacob marry two sisters, contrary to the code of behavior he had accepted upon himself?

This question is asked by many of the Torah commentaries, and many interesting and innovative explanations are given. The Lubavitcher Rebbe discusses several of these explanations, raises some legal objections to each of them, and then offers a profoundly simple explanation of his own: Jacob married Rachel because he had promised her that he would.

To accept upon yourself a moral standard beyond what is required by law, explains the Rebbe, is a noble and desirable thing -- as long as it only involves a sacrifice on your part. But if your pious conduct also imposes hardship and suffering on others, you must then ask yourself: what right do I have to aspire to greater spiritual merit at another's expense?

Not to marry Rachel, after she had waited seven years in promise of a life together, would have caused her grievous hurt and insult. (To divorce Leah, in addition to the hurt and insult to her this would have involved, would not have solved the problem -- the Torah's prohibition against marrying two sisters applies also to the sister of one's living divorcee). Since Jacob was not obligated to obey the biblical prohibition against marrying two sisters, he had no right to accept upon himself a higher set of values if it was at the expense of another human being.

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How pious should you be? As pious as you can. As long as it's only you who's paying the price

↑ Ozmom ↓

Sun, Oct 31 2004, 8:11 am

Let me be the first to repond to my own post
The Gemorah says that a chossid Shoite (shoite - foolish) is one who sees a girl drowning but has to think twice about saving her because of tznius.

Let me ask you all a question and I would like you to think honestly.
If you were to walk past and see a frum man you knew jumping in to the beach to save a girl. What would be your first thought

a: Oh wow, yaasher Koach he just saved that girl, what a hero. Saving a life is comparable to saving a whole world

b: He saved that girl but what was a frum man doing at the beach?

c: oh how awkward for him having to grab a girl like that. ooh but isn't it a problem, not tznius, he should have called someone else (of course in the interim she could have drowned while he is looking for a more tznius solution)Its just wrong, I mean a man with yiras shamayim should not put in himself in a situation where he may come to sin...........

Now after you choose your answer and I'm assuming you are all bright enough to choose logically, I want you all to think long and hard.
Even in not so urgent and life threatening circumstances, do we ever have the attitude of choice c: when judging our peers.
do we sit and pasken what they should really be doing, without being their Rov, mashpia, what level of yiras shamayim they have. Do we have the right to make assumptions about someone elses emunah because they need to use a certain heter, do we make assumptions about someones Yiras shamayim because they inadvertantly did something not according to halocho.

the difference between the moshel I'm bringing and the real life scenarios I'm talking about is that we don't always see the girl drowning, its not always so obvious to us whats happening in another persons circumstance. It may appear to us that he is going in to swim with the girl for fun, not save her. A woman asking her husband to stay home from the minyan may appear spoilt and not caring about the importance of a minyan but in reality, she may be drowning.
Not every situation in someone elses life calls for us to educate them and voice our opinion. Sometimes Torah expects us to put all considerations aside and demonstrate true empathy and ahavas yisroel as we see from the following statements in Pirkei Avos:
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A. One should always judge another meritoriously - "Hevey don es kol hodom lekaf zechus"
B. "Al todin es chavercha ad shetagiya limekomo" - Do not judge another until your in their position

Sometimes its better to keep your righteosness and ideals to yourself.
why? Its not always approprate to the next person, these are not cases of Hoichyach toichiach, these are cases of ideals and what is ideal for you may not be appropriate for the next. The law of Hoichyach toichiach is clearly defined as pertaining only to someone who is equal to your level in Torah and Mitzvos and where it is in clear violation of Halocho not chumrah or hidur.
I don't remember who but there is a famouse 'vort' -saying from a big tzaddik that there is a 5th Chelek of Shulchan Oruch that many don't know, Its called "common sense!".

On another note:
Sometimes ppl come across as being void of what is called the spirit of the Halochoh. These individuals would be wise to read up on some of Rabbi Jonathan Sacks' works in relation to this concept. I'll give you an extreme story to illustrate this attitude which one can develop, through an over obsession with halocho when it is at the expense of the spirit and soul of the halocho.

One Purim a very frum Jew was searching his town for a really poor jew with whom to perform the mitzva of Motonos Le'vyonim. He finally came across such an individual and later came to shul proudly announcing that he fulfilled this mitzvah in the very best way as there was none as poor as that person. Everyone was very eager to find out who this poor person was so that they too can perform this mitzvah. He firmly refused to divulge the whereabouts of this poor person by saying that he wishes to ensure that the poor person remains poor so that the following year he will be able to perform the same mitzva!!!
While this story may seem a bit ridiculous and far fetched, it clearly exists in more subtle form within many who by becoming so obsessed with what the Halocho states, that they forget the WHY. They forget why does the Torah want me to give that person Tzedokoh as well as perform mitzvos? It's to refine ourselves to become better human beings and not monotonous robots devoid of human expressionism and feelings.

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"Dayach mah Sheosrah Hatorah" - "Suffice yourself with what the Torah forbids you!"
When it comes to DIVREI HORESHUS - permissible matters that do not lead to sin and can be used for Kedusha and serving Hashem bsimcha one should not stifle themselves and especially others who are trying to do all they can to better and improve their physical life so that they can be more upbeat and positive and happy on the inside and outside.
Divrei Horeshus are the things in which the Torah says "be yourself"
and I will not dictate to you within this realm. The Torah is alowing us the freedom to make some choices ourselves to ensure that we truly serve Hashem Quote:
"Bechol Derocheicha doaihu"-
in all your own individual ways, acknowledge Hashem.
May we all be in tune with each others feelings and needs, without getting hung up on preaching and dictating what we perceive the ideal to be.
Let us look to Avrohom Avinu. In a sicha of the Rebbe on Beraishis parshat vayeira perek 21 posuk 33(and you don't have be lubavitch to appreciate this) the Rebbe describes how Avrohom first take care of his guests physical and emotional needs even providing arbitration if they needed it and only then, when all their needs were met did he speak to them about Hashem. The Rebbe even goes further to say that even luxuries and extras that Avrohom didn't indulge in for himself, he ensured that his guests had
Let us recognise that we do not know each others situations, and needs and whether they are being met and what things in life they need to indulge in before we try to comform each other to our own ideals and what we percieve to be the correct.

Last edited by Ozmom on Sat, Nov 06 2004, 6:36 am; edited 2 times in total

Tue, Nov 02 2004, 1:46 am

Ozmom - what an excellent post. I'm afraid I don't even pretend to understand some of the hebrew words (although you did a great job in translating most things).

You made me really stop and think though. I have always maintained that we cannot judge another for 2 reasons - (1) you can never be in their shoes (ever) and thus cannot understand their personal cheshbons, and (2) we really do not understand how Hashem "judges" the mitzvos and which ones are "more important" than others.

Now that I think about it, I am very guilty at times at judging others - there is someone in my life that threw away the head covering and dresses rather unsneously (to say the least - pardon the pun) and yet wouldn't think of going to the bathroom without saying 'asher yatzar' afterwards. Who are am I to judge any of it? She has to have her relationship with the Abishter and make her own cheshbon - why am I even judging? I know the answer - it's because I am 'threatened' by what she is doing/not doing because of my own yatzer hora. I can cluck my tongue at her because for me it is so difficult to cover up and yet "I am doing it - what's wrong with her?"

I'm glad you brought up this thread - I don't know if I'm resonding exactly how you wanted this thread to go, but it's definitely "food for thought" for me.

It sure looks like you put a lot of time and thought into it.

Sometimes I read the different posts and feel like I am not living my life as a Torah Jew - chas v'shalom - because my husband and I do not seem to be following the "rules" that keep getting posted and offered (often unsolicited). From your post Ozmom, and correct me if I'm wrong, you are saying that this area is not so black and white and we have to sometimes decide for ourselves what is best in the bigger picture. I think, because we are all at such different levels of understanding. etc., it's just between us and Hashem - He knows where we are and where we are going.

↑ Ozmom ↓

Tue, Nov 02 2004, 5:29 am

Cs tell me what words you don't understand and I'll translate.

the concept of feeling threatened is another good angle
The Kohanim in the Beis Hamikdash, had a process of washing their hands and feet using a 'Kiyor'- the vessel used for this that was made out of the mirrors of the women in mitzrayim. One reason the mirrors were used was as a tribute to the women who used the mirrors to beutify themselves for the sake of pru urevu, to entice their husbands who were disheartened and didn't want children to suffer under Paroh. The other reason which is relates to the point we are discussing is that the mirrors were supposed to be a reminder to the Kohanim that when they view another persons faults they should view it as if they are looking in a mirror. Usually when you see a fault in someone else that really bothers you, its because you have an element of that fault in yourself, that needs working on.

CS although the point I was bringing out was not judging there is a concept of Hoichiach Toichiach which means rebuking someone doing wrong, but that pertains to something that is black and white, eg: breaking the laws of Shabbos. However you would only do it with someone on the right level. You wouldn't go over to a jew who knows nothing and straight away yell at him "hey what are you doing, its Shabbos". you would attempt to Mekariv him- bring him close to Judasim, show him the beauty so that he will come to it of his own choice but in a way thats pleasant and he would accept.
In reference to what I was saying about not stifling yourself I was refering to issues that if you did deprive yourself would lead to discontentment and therefore not serving Hashem right.
Another thing is that even when you are in a position to rebuke someone who should know better you should be doing it out of love, and not out of disgust. If you are doing it out of disgust, then go away and let someone better able to express ahavas Yisroel do the job.
In regards to your friend who threw off her sheitle, it sounds like something may have upset her and turned her off if she "threw" it away the way it sounds.