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Forum
-> Parenting our children
Do you allow your daughters to sing at a mixed Shabbat table?
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| I encourage my daughters to sing at the table |
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28% |
[ 29 ] |
| I don't mind if they sing |
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13% |
[ 14 ] |
| I strongly discourage my daughters to sing at a mixed table |
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8% |
[ 9 ] |
| My daughers would never dream of singing at a mixed table; they've been taught it's against halacha |
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48% |
[ 49 ] |
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| Total Votes : 101 |
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Ruchel
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 Tue, Jun 08 2010, 9:18 am
No problem. It's as a group AND religious!
I wouldn't encourage or discourage. They'll do as they feel like..
We were invited once for shabbes at dh's cousin (a very frum rabbi) and his wife sang.
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shevi82
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 9:47 am
It's really not a question of opinion.
For people who follow Halacha: women cannot sing in front of strange men.
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Tamiri
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 10:04 am
| Isramom8 wrote: | I voted 4 but it's not entirely accurate that they would not even think of singing.
For those who sing, what do you think of this scene? DH invited a MO family over for Friday night. Now usually guests do what you do even if they do differently at home, right? Not this woman. DH started singing Shalom Aleichem. This woman looked at me and asked in horror, "You don't sing?" I said something like, "Yes, when we can." She said in this very assertive tone, "WE sing." And proceded to lift high her lovely soprano voice to the pesukim of Shalom Aleichem. And motioned firmly for her teenage daughter to join in.
I thought it rude and never invited them back. It's one thing to be unaware, or to have a different shita. But I was clearly uncomfortable. DH, of course, ignored her singing; you have to ignore some things to be a successful rabbi in a mixed community. | I think she was trying to teach you a lesson. Quite rude.
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ally
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 10:47 am
| shevi82 wrote: | It's really not a question of opinion.
For people who follow Halacha: women cannot sing in front of strange men. |
The halacha is not that clear cut.
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 10:58 am
| shevi82 wrote: | It's really not a question of opinion.
For people who follow Halacha: women cannot sing in front of strange men. | excuse me but that is just not true, or rather that is waaaaaaaaaay too general.
there are rabbanim who say that it is ok to for women to sing in a group, meaning not a solo. and that is halacha too.
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HindaRochel
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 10:59 am
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I am not a good singer, and don't really enjoy it, but it was never a question Neither was I ever anywhere where women didn't sing.
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Ruchel
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 12:12 pm
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This has been discussed to death. It goes from "no, never, not even your own husband during nida", to "yes, everywhere, anything clean". Search engine.
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HindaRochel
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 12:16 pm
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There are even those who will listen to a single female vocalist as long as the song isn't a love song....
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slushiemom
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 12:19 pm
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and of course, as most of the men I know hold, that a recording is perfectly fine, as well as a video (I.e. musicals or something) as long as you don't personally know the woman.
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Peanut2
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 12:24 pm
| shevi82 wrote: | It's really not a question of opinion.
For people who follow Halacha: women cannot sing in front of strange men. |
I am not an expert on this. However...
There are a lot of disagreements about when the issue of kol isha applies, like if it is relevant only when a man is reciting shema and similar activities (singing zemirot may or may not fall into that kind of category), or always applicable, and whether it refers to a woman's singing voice or her voice in general.
When it comes to singing, it is also possible to be lenient* in the following situations AFAIK:
1) When it's more than one woman singing, 2) it's an unmarried woman singing, 3) the singing is of a religious nature, and even 4) the woman is not singing love songs or inappropriate songs.
*When I say it's possible to be lenient, I mean that the are respectable rabbinic opinions to back this up.
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 1:03 pm
| HindaRochel wrote: | | There are even those who will listen to a single female vocalist as long as the song isn't a love song.... | ill chime in here and say that my husband goes to plays with me because there is a school of thought (dont ask me which rav said this, I forgot and I would have to ask my husband) that if the woman is singing through a microphone it is also ok. I never knew this before I got married, so you learn something new every day.
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Ruchel
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 1:05 pm
I want to go and sing at the New Star because of the mike and clean song thing, but I doubt I'll end up doing it 
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Chocoholic
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 1:20 pm
I love to sing at the shabbos table, however, I always feel very self conscious because I think I sing like a false crow.
But, I have no problem with, my future daughters or any woman singing at the table.
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HindaRochel
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 1:26 pm
| Chocoholic wrote: | I love to sing at the shabbos table, however, I always feel very self conscious because I think I sing like a false crow.
But, I have no problem with, my future daughters or any woman singing at the table. |
I've always claimed that my voice was so bad it didn't qualify for Kol Isha...crow here as well..
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freidasima
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 2:45 pm
a non issue with us as we hold that kol isha does not apply unless it is a woman, singing face to face alone in front of men with no microphone or sound system or instruments.
Groups of women - fine
mixed groups - fine
microphone - fine
Video - fine
with instruments - fine
So our rabbonim taught us and so we hold.
Naturally I will be aware of what my guests feel and hold and will do a lot not to embarras them, same if I am in a general public. But in my own house with my family and friends who hold like we do? Not an issue.
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grace413
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 2:48 pm
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Hinda Rochel, that's my line!
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Shiny
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 3:57 pm
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I once heard that a man is not allowed to say a dvar shebikedusha while he hears singing of a female. No difference who that female is. I think its like ervah. Some say that zemiros is considered dvar shebikedusha.
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Tablepoetry
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 4:00 pm
Another crow here. My husband wishes I would sing, he thinks I'm too self conscious about my voice.
I love it when female guests come and join the singing.
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slushiemom
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 4:03 pm
| a shana reshonanick wrote: | | I once heard that a man is not allowed to say a dvar shebikedusha while he hears singing of a female. No difference who that female is. I think its like ervah. Some say that zemiros is considered dvar shebikedusha. |
care to back that up with a source? I once heard a lot of things... good thing I dont straight out believe everything I hear! (especially things I heard in seminary)
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Isramom8
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 4:10 pm
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Chareidi society is pretty strict about this. No live or recorded women's singing voices for boys from age nine.
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