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When were kayin and hevel born?

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youngmom ↓

Fri, Oct 28 2005, 6:33 am

can someone help me with this? I mean before the "chet" or after?

proudmom ↓

Fri, Oct 28 2005, 6:57 am

They were born after the Chet

Motek ↓

Fri, Oct 28 2005, 8:24 am

Kayin and Hevel were born before Adam and Chava committed the sin of eating the forbidden fruit (Sanhedrin 38b).

RedVines

Fri, Oct 28 2005, 8:40 am

They were born before the Chet, even though it seems like it was after the chet because of the text, that is what Rashi says.

↑ proudmom ↓

Fri, Oct 28 2005, 8:43 am

I read somewhere that they were born after, They were born after adam and chava left gan eden

↑ proudmom ↓

Fri, Oct 28 2005, 8:46 am

Quote:

Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, 'With the help of the Lord I have brought forth a man.' Later she gave birth to his brother Abel. Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil." (Gen. 4:1,2)

Adam and Eve bore two sons, Cain and Abel. They were sinners, just like their parents. The sin of Adam spread to his children, like a contagious disease. Cain and Abel were conceived in sin. Thus, the Scriptures say: "Adam bore sons in his own likeness." (Gen. 5:3). "Like father, like son." Cain and Abel were born with a sinful nature. The children grew physically and increased in knowledge.

Last edited by proudmom on Fri, Oct 28 2005, 8:48 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ proudmom ↓

Fri, Oct 28 2005, 8:48 am

Quote:

Last time, in our study in the Torah, we saw that God, after Adam and Eve sinned, began to announce His plan to bring into the world One who would deliver the children of Adam from the power of Satan and sin and hell.

↑ youngmom ↓

Fri, Oct 28 2005, 12:25 pm

I'm still confused.
if they were born after does that mean that chava had 9 months of pregnancy/pain in pregnancy?

Rochel Leah

Fri, Oct 28 2005, 12:43 pm

From what I remember learning, I don't have sources that before the chet, Chava had kayin and hevel, they were each born with a twin sister. chava did not have a regular pregnancy as we do , the children were born 'right away'. after the chet it was one of the punishments that women wold have 9 months of pregnancy plus a long labour. chava had more children after the chet but she went through a 'normal' pregnansy

Rivka ↓

Sat, Oct 29 2005, 1:44 pm

From the quote proudmom brough it sounds that they were born after. There would have been no reason for them to be born before. Before the chet Adam and Chava would never have died, so after the chet they had to have children to survive.

↑ proudmom ↓

Sat, Oct 29 2005, 5:13 pm

Motek wrote:

Kayin and Hevel were born before Adam and Chava committed the sin of eating the forbidden fruit (Sanhedrin 38b).

I saw that in the vedibartam bum I shabbos, it mentions that they were born before the sin and the third son was born after.

chen ↓

Sat, Oct 29 2005, 5:15 pm

[quote="proudmom"][quote]Last time, in our study in the Torah, we saw that God, after Adam and Eve sinned, began to announce His plan to bring into the world One who would deliver the children of Adam from the power of Satan and sin and hell. [/quote][/quote]

where is this from? it sounds rather christian to me.

↑ chen

Sat, Oct 29 2005, 5:20 pm

[quote="Rivka"]From the quote proudmom brough it sounds that they were born after. There would have been no reason for them to be born before. Before the chet Adam and Chava would never have died, so after the chet they had to have children to survive.[/quote]

sorry, this idea makes no sense. why would the Abishter create an entire world for just two people? Not to mention that the Torah, which was created before everything else, could obviously not have been intended for just two people. Not to mention that they were commanded pru u'revu before the chet.

↑ Rivka

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 5:41 am

Um because they weren't in the world, they were in gan eden.
So what really happened, was Hashem wanted them to sin so they could live on the world and bring children to the world...oh and they were not given the torah then. But obviously Hashem wanted to give us the torah and the only way for anything to have happened was for Adam and Chava to sin.
But they still had to be punished, because they did something wrong...but I dare say the women got the worst punishment.

lucky

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 5:53 am

Rivka wrote:

but I dare say the women got the worst punishment.

The men did not get away with it easy either.

hadasa

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 6:51 am

Rashi Perek Daled Pasuk Alef says clearly that they were born before the Chet.

proudmom, where are those quotes from?

shanie5

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 8:04 am

in "The Midrash Says" it says that kayin was born before adam did teshuva for the chet- hence his nature. it seems that they were both born after the chet, but on the same day as the chet. 9 month preg may have started after shabbos (just a guess on my part)

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 1:24 pm

turns out both are truth

the Gemara says before, the Zohar says after

miriam

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 1:27 pm

Motek is here to save the day.

↑ Motek

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 3:02 pm

pretty neat huh, everybody gets to be right 8)

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