cholent -halacha question

amother

Fri, Jan 25 2008, 6:16 am

Is it true that the cholent may be either half cooked on the onset of shabbos or must be completely raw, going to be cooked in a crock pot.
just a bit confused
TIA

HindaRochel

Fri, Jan 25 2008, 6:20 am

I had always learned that it had to be cooked enough that a thief would eat it (ie it could be eaten on the run). I don't really understand having it put on raw, though maybe that is the Halacha, and I would also like to know how it doesn't violate the injunction of cooking on Shabbat. (INTERSTED in understanding the law, not questioning the approach if it is considered valid by some.)

Mimisinger ↓

Fri, Jan 25 2008, 6:44 am

Yes either is correct. The point is that either it's able to be eaten or completely not edible. meaning you're not going to turn it up in order to eat it fri nt. because it's not going to be anywhere near done.

justanothermother ↓

Fri, Jan 25 2008, 6:53 am

Quote:

Shehiya
Chazal issued a decree forbidding one to place food on the fire before Shabbat begins (Shehiya). Their concern was that one might be tempted to stir the coals to make the food cook faster (Shabbat 18b). The Gemara (Shabbat 36b) records a great controversy between the Chachamim and Chanania regarding the scope of this prohibition. The Chachamim forbid Shehiya unless the food is cooked entirely and any further cooking will detract from the quality of the food (Mitztamek Vera Lo). Chanania limits the decree to where the food is not cooked to the extent that it is marginally edible (Maachal Ben Drosai).

The Rishonim vigorously debate whether the Halacha follows the opinion of the Chachamim or Chanania. The Rif, Rambam, and Ramban rule in accordance with the strict view of the Chachamim. Rashi, Tosafot, and the Baal Hamaor rule in accordance with Chanania. Rav Yosef Karo (Shulchan Aruch O.C. 253:1) rules in accordance with the Chachamim. This is hardly surprising as the major Sefardic Rishonim follow the opinion of the Chachamim. The Rama (ibid.), on the other hand, notes that the accepted Ashkenazic practice is to follow the opinion of Chanania. The Rama, in turn, notes the common Ashkenazic practice to follows the great Ashkenazic Rishonim, who ruled like Chanania.

Interestingly, the Biur Halacha (253:1 s.v. Venahagu) writes that it is certainly preferable to follow the opinion of the Chachamim. He bases this approach on the fact that the Bait Yosef cites the Rosh (Shabbat 3:1), who seems to tolerance the Ashkenazic practice to follow Chanania very reluctantly. The Rosh writes that "since there are many opinions on this matter and the Jewish People are highly committed to observe the Mitzva to enjoy Shabbat and they will not listen to follow the stringent view, let them follow their custom to follow the opinion of Chanania."

The Chazon Ish (O.C. 37:3) understands the Rosh very differently. The Chazon Ish understands the Rosh as initially positing that since this is a complex dispute, in principle one should be strict and avoid attempting to resolve the dispute. However, since one will often impinge on Oneg Shabbat if he avoids resolving the dispute, one's reaction will be that he wishes to follow the basic Halacha and not be strict. Indeed, the people have the right to do so because this is only a matter of a rabbinical law and they are the descendants of those who followed the lenient view based on the rulings of their rabbis. Thus, the Chazon Ish concludes that one may follow the Rama without any reservations. Indeed, this seems to be the intent of the Rama, as he does not say that it is best to be strict about this point (contrast this with the Rama's assessment of the Minhag he cites in O.C. 253:2). Common practice appears to accept the Chazon Ish's approach to this matter.

Does a Blech Help? Shulchan Aruch vs. Rav Akiva Eiger
The Shulchan Aruch (ibid.) clearly indicates that the aforementioned dispute pertains only if the food is placed on a fire not covered by a Blech. Shehiya is prohibited due to concern that one may come to stir the coals. However, a Blech remedies this concern. Thus, Shehiya should be permitted if a Blech covers the fire. Nevertheless, Rav Akiva Eiger (ibid. s.v. Oh Nitbashel) posits that Chanania does not permit Shehiya if the food is not cooked to the point of Maachal Ben Drosai even if there is a Blech. The Mishna Berura (254:50) accepts the ruling of the Shulchan Aruch. He merely notes the view of Rav Akiva Eiger (Biur Halacha 253:1 s.v. Ve'im). For a critique of Rav Akiva Eiger's opinion, see Rav Mordechai Willig, Bait Yitzchak 20:66-68.
Common practice seems to follow the Shulchan Aruch and the Mishna Berura on this point. People commonly put a kettle filled with cold water on the Blech moments before Shabbat begins, in accordance with the lenient view. However, Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik (cited by Rav Hershel Schachter in Bait Yitzchak 28:18) reports that the practice among the Jews in pre-war Galicia was to follow the stringent viewpoint of Rav Akiva Eiger on this issue. The cousin of this author, Rav Yosef Singer of the Lower East Side (who served as a Rav in pre-war Galicia) confirms the authenticity of Rav Soloveitchik's report. My fellow "Galitzianers" should consult with their rabbis as to whether our Galician heritage still binds us to this practice of our ancestors.

Kedeira Chaita
The Gemara (Shabbat 18b) and Shulchan Aruch (253:1) permit Shehiya if there is some raw meat placed in the pot immediately before Shabbat. The reasoning for this leniency is that the concern for stirring the coals is not relevant if there is some raw meat added to the food. This is because the food will not be ready for the Friday night meal no matter how much the food is stirred since it takes a very long time for the food to cook. Moreover, the food will be ready for the Shabbat afternoon meal even if the food will not be stirred. The Mishna Berura mentions no objection to following this rule. Similarly, the Aruch Hashulchan (253:8-9) notes this practice and does not express any reservations about relying on this rule.Nevertheless, Rav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin (Kitvei Harav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin 2:19) ruled emphatically that this should not be relied upon in the modern era. Among his concerns were that modern ovens are much more efficient compared to those used in pre-modern times. Rav Henkin notes that raw meat cooks relatively quickly in modern ovens. Hence, he argues that the concern that one may come to stir the coals (or adjust the flame) is relevant today even if raw meat has been added to a dish. Recall that Rav Henkin arrived in America in the early twentieth century and lived a generation after the Mishna Berura and Aruch Hashulchan were written.

Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik (cited by Rav Hershel Schachter, Nefesh Harav pp. 156-157) agrees with this ruling of Rav Henkin. Rav Moshe Feinstein (cited by Rav Shimon Eider, Halachos of Shabbos p. 336, note 783), however, believes that we still may rely on the Kedeira Chaita rule even when using a modern oven. We should note that some have suggested that the Kedeira Chaita rule may have reemerged with the advent of the crockpot. Since crockpots cook so slowly, the concern that one may come to adjust them might not be relevant. One should consult with his Rav about this issue.

I had an issue one week when I forgot to start my chulent on time. My Rav advised me to make it then and put the meat in right before I lit. I never looked up the reasoning behind it before, but here it is.

su7kids

Fri, Jan 25 2008, 7:00 am

Just to clarify: Its for MEAT only, not chicken.

chocolate moose ↓

Fri, Jan 25 2008, 7:24 am

Don't forget, the din of a cockpot is different than usin g a blech.

mimsy7420

Sat, Jan 26 2008, 9:25 am

chocolate moose wrote:

Don't forget, the din of a cockpot is different than usin g a blech.

whats the difference? I dont have a blech and im curious...

grin

Sat, Jan 26 2008, 10:55 am

what hasgacha pratis! I had exactly this probelm this past Shabbos - I suddenly discoverd that I was low on gas and couldn't cook the soup on the stove. We decided to cook it in the crock pot, but that cooks much slower, so it was barely cooked when Shabbos started. We didn't touch it until one of the girls (who hadn't realized it could be a problem) took soup at nt and then put it back.
I was told to cover the sides and bottom of the base of the crock pot (where the heating elements are) with foil so that you may put the insert (with food) back during Shabbos (similar to a blech on the fire).

↑ chocolate moose ↓

Sat, Jan 26 2008, 3:23 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

Don't forget, the din of a cockpot is different than usin g a blech.

sure.

Lechatchila Ariber ↓

Sat, Jan 26 2008, 3:37 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

because you aren't actually doing anything on shabbos to cook it.
you are allowed to start something cooking before shabbos and it continues on shabbos as long as you aren't doing anything on shabbos to aid it. The reason why it has to be cooked before shabbos like you described (although my husband always tells me it has to be fully cooked if I want to nosh it on fri night) is because just in case someone wants to eat on friday night and take the cholent and start medling in it, then if it isn't fully cooked your stiring can have an affect and you may not be allowed to put the pot back.
so...in that case if you know the cholent is completely raw before shabbos then there won't be any risk of you checking on friday night to have some since you will know that there is no point since it won't be ready till the next day

only1 wrote:

whats the difference? I dont have a blech and im curious...

I'm not completely sure since I don't use a crockpot, (I use one of those israeli shabbos hotplates) but I think the idea is that the base of the crockpot is considered possibly the actual element so you need to put foil as a blech sort of.

↑ chocolate moose ↓

Sat, Jan 26 2008, 4:22 pm

only1 wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

Don't forget, the din of a cockpot is different than usin g a blech.

whats the difference? I dont have a blech and im curious...

Have a look at an English dinim book. It'd explain it better than I ever could.

↑ justanothermother

Sat, Jan 26 2008, 4:27 pm

only1 wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

Don't forget, the din of a cockpot is different than usin g a blech.

whats the difference? I dont have a blech and im curious...

If you read the last two paragraphs of my first post, it will explain it.

↑ Mimisinger

Sat, Jan 26 2008, 4:30 pm

Why is chicken different than meat? I don't use chicken in my cholent, but why would it be diff?

↑ Lechatchila Ariber

Sat, Jan 26 2008, 4:49 pm

maybe because it cooks faster

red sea

Sat, Jan 26 2008, 5:57 pm

I remember learning it has to be 1/3 of the way cooked before shabbos, so if there are such differences in halacha I would highly reccomend you ask your own rav.

↑ chocolate moose

Sun, Jan 27 2008, 6:03 am

red sea, not a crockpot.

sunnybrook

Sun, Jan 27 2008, 9:47 am

I think Chicken is different bec the bones soften up from more cooking and get edible.