TERRIBLE KASHRUS | Imamother

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

TERRIBLE KASHRUS

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View latest: 24h 48h 72h

amother ↓

Mon, Aug 21 2006, 8:51 am

this subject has been bothering me: Three very good kosher restaurants have been declared treif. 2 were dairy and 1 is fleishig. I have to be honest....I feel bad for these families......
1. Restaurant A: there are 2 owners,one is a shomer shabbos man who happens to daven in my shul and the other is his son. His son is married to a [gentile] so the rav said we should not eat there. Yet he has been in buisness for years and was doing well. I think his son should just leave but I cant say much.
2. Restaurant B: Our family favourite and amazing milchig restaurant, the rov said we can not eat there as the manager the owner hired is a [gentile]....and the manager should be a frum jew...Ok in this situation he could just fire the manager and rehire...but he chooses not too...so thats really his problem
3.Resaurant C: this seems to be the worst but we havent eaten there in months. They recently changed hasgacha and that was because they said the hashgacha was after money yet the hasgacha comapany said they had a juice they were using that was without a hescher. This man also lives close to us...which is not in the main community and he comes to our home often.MY husband just found out the situation and it turns out he is frum and his wife is anti- so she doesnt go to mikvah...so theres his problem..and apparently this is HUGE....
I feel bad saying more as I really do feel bad for their parnassa....and for embarrassing another jew but there is a fine line here
This is weird to hear....and sad////just wanted to know what you think

brooklyn ↓

Mon, Aug 21 2006, 9:10 am

Who cares if the manager is not a Jew. As long as he knows what is and what is not allowed and of course if there is a mashgiach, what is the problem? Even if the manager is frum there is still supposed to be a mashgiach.

southernbubby

Mon, Aug 21 2006, 9:15 am

We subscribe to Kashrus Magazine and sometime they publish articles exposing fraud in kashrus. Unsuspecting consumers put a lot of trust in hechsherim and often are misled. When it comes to money, sometimes even the frumest yid forgets what it is all about. It is just one symptom of the state that frum society is in.

Mommy3.5

Mon, Aug 21 2006, 10:12 am

his wife is anti-? what does her not going to the mikva have to do with the hechsher on his restaurant?!?!

bandcm

Mon, Aug 21 2006, 10:20 am

I guess because then it means he doesn't keep taharas hamishpacha. That is a criteria for a frum person (along with Shabbos and kashrus), so if their thing is that if the owner is not frum you can't eat there, I guess this makes him "not frum".
I always thought that as long as the hashgacha is good, who cares who the owner/manager is.

red sea

Mon, Aug 21 2006, 10:32 am

southernbubby wrote:

And on the flip side there is a lot of politics in the hechsherim business so between that and behind the scenes problems covered up in the restaurants kitchens u really have to think.

Pickle Lady ↓

Mon, Aug 21 2006, 11:19 am

My husband is in restaurant hashgacha and he has worked for very reliable hashgachas. Yes its scary some of the things he tells me. Personally its better if the owner is a non-jew rather that a non-frum jew. I have never heard that a manager can't be a non-jew. Funny thing is that when my husband has worked with a non-jewish manager it was better than when he worked for a frum jewish manager.

chocolate moose ↓

Mon, Aug 21 2006, 11:48 am

I worked in kashruth for 12 years in one place, and a few years in another.

Ther'e almost nothing I hven't heard!

↑ brooklyn

Tue, Aug 22 2006, 8:00 am

Pickle Lady wrote:

Funny thing is that when my husband has worked with a non-jewish manager it was better than when he worked for a frum jewish manager.

Not looking to to start an argument or anything, but I have to admit, I have never been happy working for frum Jews. The best job I ever had was the one I have now. It is the first time that I am not working for frum Jews. Anyone see Monty Python's The Life of Brian? There is one scene where a person is living on the street, half starved to death, beaten and covered in filth, When asked about his situation the reply was "could be worse, could work for Jews". I was mad at first when I saw that scene as a teenager. Since I have been in the workforce for twenty plus years, I now see that statement in a different light. (Just a generalization, I know majority of frum bosses are probably better than most, unfortunately I worked for the other few).

Ruchel ↓

Tue, Aug 22 2006, 8:36 am

brooklyn wrote:

Pickle Lady wrote:

Funny thing is that when my husband has worked with a non-jewish manager it was better than when he worked for a frum jewish manager.

I've heard when you work for Jews it's often not well organized and careless. It was the case for my dh when he was a journalist. His boss was nice, but... urgh.

Mitzvahmom

Tue, Aug 22 2006, 8:38 am

I worked as a Mashgicha for 2 years... it was the worst two years of my life.

On one side the Rabbis were saying we hold by this standard, but u would go to another place under the same hashgacha and they had different standards!

I actually got fired 1 time because my standards were too high!! But when they got the other mashgiach they missed me and begged me to come back (I demanded changes before Iwould). I was not only mashgicha I was also the baker Wink

I did not want meat and dairy being cooked in the same kitchen (so they did a dairy kitchen).

Of course after I quit,they went back to the old way Rolling Eyes

Motek

Tue, Aug 22 2006, 3:52 pm

amother wrote:

Three very good kosher restaurants have been declared treif.

From what you wrote, it doesn't sound like any are outright treif. That your rabbi said you shouldn't eat there doesn't mean they're treif, does it?

↑ chocolate moose ↓

Tue, Aug 22 2006, 4:18 pm

right, it doesn't mean you couldn't have a soda there, or then again it might be maras ayin...

cindy324 ↓

Tue, Aug 22 2006, 4:31 pm

They didn't say it was treif at all, they just don't like the fact that one owner is married to a non jew, and that the other has a non jewish manager, but that totally does not mean the food is treif.

I mean there are quite a few restaurants here in NY, especially in mahattan, that are owned by non jews. Le Marais has an excellent hashgacha, has a mashgiach on premises at all times and is owned by a French guy, not jewish.

There's also an Indian restaurant, that is owned by a [gentile], also with excellent hashgacha.

↑ chocolate moose ↓

Tue, Aug 22 2006, 4:42 pm

I never heard it was an inyan not to eat at a rest. owned by a non jew.

is it not closed on shabbos? cuz that's someting else...

DefyGravity ↓

Tue, Aug 22 2006, 4:44 pm

IIRC, Sephardim won't eat in a restaurant that's owned by a non-Jew.

imashosh

Tue, Aug 22 2006, 4:49 pm

I am sephardi and we can eat in any resteraunt owned by a non jew as long as it has a reliable hashkacha, but preferably we need to have all of our food cooked by a jew - bishul yiroel but not everyone is machmir with this

JRKmommy ↓

Wed, Aug 23 2006, 1:20 pm

cindy324 wrote:

Cindy, I always was curious about this. Dh and I went to New York last fall and found a good kosher Indian restaurant. They showed us the letter from the rabbi who certified it kosher. It was clear that the restaurant was owned by strictly vegetarian Indians (Hindus or Jains, not sure which), and as such it was open on Shabbat. Here in Toronto, kosher restaurants are all certified by one body (COR) and I don't believe that they would certify a restaurant that opens on Shabbat. How does it work in New York? I loved the food there, and it was such a treat to be able to have good ethnic food that was kosher. How do they do it?

Annie

Wed, Aug 23 2006, 6:06 pm

there are many here who won't eat at restaurants unless they're owned by frum jews, even if they have a hashgacha that otherwise these people hold by (which requires a mashgiach).

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 24 2006, 3:50 pm

these restaurants are TORONTO restaurants....btw!

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