GER ? | Imamother

amother ↓

Mon, Jul 10 2006, 10:50 pm

What do you consider a TRUE ger?

what would you consider a Ger who does not cover her hair?

I read briefly that in isreal that anyoe can be considered a ger !I do not agree to this!

I think that a ger has to oserve all the mitzvahs !

and if she does not--- she is not a true jew !

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Jul 10 2006, 11:11 pm

I do not understand why this thread is adressed to us mommies. We are not HAlachik masters nor are we Rabbis. It is solely dependant upon the Rabbis who are involved in Giyur to decide what a true Ger is and all the Halachos of Gerus is determined by Schulchan Aruch . It does not matter what WE THINK

yoyosma

Mon, Jul 10 2006, 11:47 pm

Quote:

what would you consider a Ger who does not cover her hair?

What do you consider a MO woman who is totally Shomer Shabbos, Kosher, Mikvah etc, but doesnt cover her hair?

Emuna

Mon, Jul 10 2006, 11:56 pm

I think a lot of people are tempted to say "she is not a true Jew" if she's not fully observant. But if the Beis Din approved of the conversion originally, she's a true Jew no matter what she's doing now. Chabad Houses are filled with these women, and of course, their children.

mumsy23

Mon, Jul 10 2006, 11:57 pm

Once a non-jew converts (and the conversion is orthodox, overseen and officiated by orthodox rabbis that decide he/she is a true ger), they are jewish no matter what. Even if the ger decides to leave everything and not be frum at all - they are still concidered a jew and will be judged as such in meah vesrim.

So yes, if they were converted orthodox then they are a "true ger" even if they do not cover their hair.

avigayil

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 1:30 am

As I speak from experience, once you go to beis din and dunk, you are Jewish.

I imagine many women find it difficult to cover their hair. Many women in my community do not. I do, in various ways. I don't think we can judge either way. If she were, C"VS driving on shabbos, that is something to worry about.
The uncovered hair thing could also be something she is doing for shalom bayis. I know several couples that became frum and observe everything. The only stipulation is the husband does not want his wife covering her hair.

Crayon210 ↓

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 2:07 am

Avigayil, a married woman not covering her hair is an aveira just like driving on Shabbos.

Not covering hair is not something that can be done for the sake of shalom bayis (at least not halachically). shock

I think that if this type of situation comes up CHV, a rav should be consulted (should it be relevant to one's life, of course).

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 3:23 am

Crayon210 wrote:

I think that if this type of situation comes up CHV, a rav should be consulted (should it be relevant to one's life, of course).

just so you know, I have met many gering and BTs who have told me that covering their hair was not something that they would be able to get used to.
do you think that the beit din did not let her dunk in the mikveh b/c of that? I think not.

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 3:33 am

Geirim and BTs are in different categories.

When a ger takes on being Jewish, s/he is taking on all 613--including hair covering. I would be SHOCKED if a Beis Din allowed someone to dunk knowing that she didn't intend to cover her hair, and if she didn't, there could be shailos about her geirus.

shock

↑ amother

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 3:46 am

Quote:

Not covering hair is not something that can be done for the sake of shalom bayis (at least not halachically).

are you basing this on experience, have you actualy asked anyone about this or are just assuming that it is true?

I know quite a few women who were told not to start covering their hair until their husbands were ok with it (for shalom bayis). They were told by a very well known, learned and respected ORTHODOX rav. Of course the goal is to eventually have them cover their hair and their husbands be ok with it, but shalm bayis is a BIG issue whilst already married people are becoming frum. Out of all these women I know ALL of them now cover their hair with their husband's strong approval though some had to wait a while. The only one of them who felt she wanted to be frummer than the rav's advice is now sadly no longer married, and her husband was so turned off by the experience that he has nothing to do with yiddishkeit.

This isn't an all black or white matter

sarahd ↓

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 8:44 am

Without commenting on the correctness of the OP's comment, there is a difference between a ger and a born Jew when it comes to keeping mitzvos, I.e. while a born Jew remains one even if he doesn't keep a single mitzva, a ger needs to accept all 613 mitzvos and intend to keep them, otherwise his giyur is not kosher. So WADR chen, I'm not sure how relevant your comment is.

Nomad ↓

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 10:11 am

from what I understood, once a ger becomes a ger through the correct means (beit din, dunking..)- they have a jewish soul and no matter what they do afterward - they are still a jew

also - crayon - comparing hair covering to driving a car on shabbos as an equal aveira is your opinion - not halacha - be clear on that

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 10:51 am

amother wrote:

Quote:

Not covering hair is not something that can be done for the sake of shalom bayis (at least not halachically).

Were these women giyoros?

↑ chen ↓

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 10:52 am

sarahd wrote:

So WADR chen, I'm not sure how relevant your comment is.

If a ger had the intent to keep all the applicable mitzvos at the time of giyur (let's not forget that no one can really keep all 613 since some are only for men, only for Kohanim or leviyyim, only for the Kohen godol, only apply in EY, only apply to agriculture, only apply when the bais hamikdosh is kayyom, some were never actually kept b/c the conditions were never satisfied, etc. etc.), then the giyur is valid. What happens afterwards does not invalidate the giyur unless it is learned that at the time of giyur the person had no intention of keeping all applicable mitzvos.

my remark is quite relevant because the OP seems outraged that this giyores is not being mekayem one particular mitzvoh. seems to me that OP is putting herself in the place of the Giyur Police. Unless this giyores is looking to marry OP's son, it's none of her business, and unless OP can state truthfully that she does, in fact, keep ALL mitzvos applicable to her, then she has no right to hurl accusations at anyone else.

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 10:53 am

Nomad wrote:

Yes-if the ger had the intentions to keep all the mitzvos when they converted, then they will always be a Jew. If the ger intended to do all but cover her hair, then the conversion is questionable (at best Sad

).

The concern about a ger not keeping Shabbos, yet dismissal of a ger not covering her hair, is ignorant due to the first part of my post.

↑ Nomad

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 11:52 am

Crayon210 wrote:

Nomad wrote:

the conversion being questionable is your opinion - not nececessarily halacha - hair covering has other issues that make it not 100% black/white

so for some, even without hair covering - it can still be a 100% kosher conversion

it is not up to you to poskin this

Quote:

The concern about a ger not keeping Shabbos, yet dismissal of a ger not covering her hair, is ignorant due to the first part of my post.

im not sure what you are saying here

[/quote]

Mitzvahmom

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 12:09 pm

What about one that goes off the Derek?

Did convert (supposidly) according to the Rabbis. Though they admit they may have converted him too quickly (admitting it 6 years too late! but that's besides the point)

Rather than deal with thier "fault" issues, they pushed a GET instead of checking into GER status.