What about this donkey?

southernbubby ↓

Mon, May 22 2006, 11:14 pm

Today's sefer ha mitzvohs covered the mitzvah of unburdening an overloaded donkey belonging to your enemy. This always made me very angry. There must have been "pain in the donkey" types since time began. Imagine some advantage- taking, donkey overloading, clod, parking his beast and blocking your driveway when you are in a hurry! No wonder nobody liked him and the Torah had to force us to help him out!
My question is, Detroit and Brooklyn have ordinances against donkeys so how do we keep this mitzvah today? I am sure that there is a lot to learn from this but most of us would not like to run into this overloaded donkey too often. On the other hand, we would have a mitzvah.

didan

Wed, Jul 12 2006, 11:40 pm

B"H

Interesting. There are a lot of Mitzvos that don't apply to the lives we live now.

We had an experience with one (almost.)

A pair of mourning doves build a nest on the lamp outside of our house. They sat on the eggs all day. It was mostly the female, but they took turns and sometimes the male came as well. They got used to us and were not afraid and did not fly away when we came and left and went about our business.

My kids loved me to lift them up so they'd be able to see the eggs.

We talked about the Mitzvah of Shiluach Hakan. On the one hand, it's a Mitzvah we don't get to perform every day. Should we do it?

On the other, we have no use for the eggs, even though they are Kosher, especially because they were fertilized so we wouldn't be able to use them even if we did want to. So why should we send away the mother and take the eggs and cause her heartache?

In the end we did not do it. We watched the eggs and missed them hatch - it happened at night. The kids were so excited to see tiny little baby birds and watch the mother feed them and watch them learn how to fly etc.

I still wonder about it. Should we have sent away the mother or does the Mitzvah only apply if you need the eggs?

No, we did not consult a Rov, though it would be an interesting question to ask.

chen ↓

Thu, Jul 13 2006, 11:15 am

didan wrote:

We talked about the Mitzvah of Shiluach Hakan. On the one hand, it's a Mitzvah we don't get to perform every day. Should we do it?

You did right. Not every Mitzvoh in the Torah is something you should be doing. What do I mean by that? Well, some Mitzvos are there "in case"--because human beings are the way they are, the Torah has contingency plans in place--not that the Torah wants us to have to use them.

For example, take Sotoh. It's a mitzvas asei, right? So does this mean that a man should accuse his wife of wrongdoing just so that the whole Sotoh ceremony can be performed? Of course not! Giving a woman a get is also a mitzvas asei--in the event that a man finds in his wife ervas dovor. No one would suggest that a man davko look for an ervas dovor so that he can fulfill the mitzvoh of giving her a get!

Shiluach HaKen is exactly the same sort of thing. The Torah is not expecting us to take the eggs so that we can send the mother away. Davko the Torah would prefer we not take the eggs, which would be a whole lot kinder. However...people being people, and having a desire--or a need--to eat nice fresh eggs, the Torah makes allowances for that weakness in our nature and says, OK, you can eat the eggs--but if you do, send the mother bird away first.

The whole phenomenon of "Shiluach haKen parties" in which a tour guide takes people to somewhere in the country where there are birds' nests for the sole purpose of sending away the mothers and taking the eggs (which no one really wants to eat, BTW, and has anyone considered the Bal tashchis issue?) is a narishkeit so astonishing, the mind boggles.

Motek ↓

Thu, Jul 13 2006, 11:42 am

chen wrote:

The whole phenomenon of "Shiluach haKen parties" in which a tour guide takes people to somewhere in the country where there are birds' nests for the sole purpose of sending away the mothers and taking the eggs (which no one really wants to eat, BTW, and has anyone considered the Bal tashchis issue?) is a narishkeit so astonishing, the mind boggles.

Narish?

Quote:

Whether or not the Mitzvah applies even when one does not need the eggs is the subject of a Machlokes. See our Insights to the Daf here, where we survey the various opinions.

(4) On the contrary, it is *preventing* Tza'ar Ba'alei Chayim by sending
away the mother bird so that she does not have to be present and suffer the distress when her eggs are taken. Again, though, see the Insights regarding the reasons for the Mitzvah.

(5) ..

Since the performance of the Mitzvah of Shilu'ach ha'Ken is relatively rare
(how many times have you done it?), and its Zechus is tremendously great, it may qualify as a Mitzvah she'Iy Efshar la'Asos Al Yedei Acherim for which it is permissible to interrupt one's learning. Indeed, many of the great Gedolim of this generation and past generations went out of their way to perform this Mitzvah.

http://www.mail-archive.com/da......html

southernbubby - I don't understand your post, or maybe it's because you don't understand the halacha

Nobody is "forced" to unload a donkey and there is no taking advantage! Even if he's not your enemy, if the donkey-owner sits down to relax because he knows you have the mitzva of helping him, you are not obligated to do so, because HELPING him means HE is doing the work too.

shalhevet ↓

Thu, Jul 13 2006, 12:19 pm

chen wrote:

didan wrote:

We talked about the Mitzvah of Shiluach Hakan. On the one hand, it's a Mitzvah we don't get to perform every day. Should we do it?

Chen, do you have any sources for all this??
Where do you get that

Quote:

the Torah would prefer we not take the eggs

and that performing a mitzva is

Quote:

is a narishkeit so astonishing, the mind boggles.

I am totally shock

There are definitely opinions that you should take the eggs even if you don't want them.
One explanation for this is that by sending away the mother bird, she cries for her children and this awakens the Shechina (Divine Presence) to cry for her children too and brings the geula closer.

When a person does a mitzva it has many effects in both this world and the next.

I think there's a place where it says that you mustn't say that Hashem gave us certain mitzvas such as this and shechita because he has pity on the animals. (Motek, sources please, if you can find them!)

You have taken non-Jewish values and plastered them on our holy Torah. What has this to do with Sotah? No-one does a sin in order to fulfil this precious mitzva. (BTW, doing shiluach haken is considered a segula for children)

On a practical level, anyone who is interested in doing this mitzva should consult with a rav before the eggs are laid. There are many details, including that the place where the nest is must be ownerless.

healthymama

Thu, Jul 13 2006, 12:43 pm

mummy of six, maybe you should not have written :

Quote:

You have taken non-Jewish values and plastered them on our holy Torah

.
Doesn't sound nice. As for her sources, she has some good backup.

The chasam sofer wrote (based on the ramban) :

Quote:

Because of this reason, it is clear that if he doesn't need the
offspring, not only is he not required to send away the mother, but he
is also committing cruelty. Then, instead of learning not to be cruel,
we,conversely, accustom ourselves to cruelty, to afflict a living
creature unnecessarily by chasing the mother from her offspring - and
afflicting living creatures is a Torah prohibition."

↑ shalhevet

Thu, Jul 13 2006, 3:40 pm

Quote:

healthymama wrote:

mummy of six, maybe you should not have written :

Quote:

You have taken non-Jewish values and plastered them on our holy Torah

.
Doesn't sound nice.

But

Quote:

is a narishkeit so astonishing, the mind boggles.

sounds a lot less nice.

Quote:

As for her sources, she has some good backup.

The chasam sofer wrote (based on the ramban) :

Quote:

This was very interesting. Obviously there are different opinions and thank you for teaching me this one.

lucky ↓

Thu, Jul 13 2006, 5:50 pm

Quote:

The chasam sofer wrote (based on the ramban) :
Quote:
Because of this reason, it is clear that if he doesn't need the
offspring, not only is he not required to send away the mother, but he
is also committing cruelty. Then, instead of learning not to be cruel,
we,conversely, accustom ourselves to cruelty, to afflict a living
creature unnecessarily by chasing the mother from her offspring - and
afflicting living creatures is a Torah prohibition."

Thats why this mitzva can only be done when the eggs are not hatched. My husband studied it last year because we had a nest in our backyard.
It is a segula for many things, and it is said that the mothers cries awaken rachmim for us.

↑ southernbubby

Thu, Jul 13 2006, 6:17 pm

What I did learn about the halachas concerning an overloaded donkey was that it was mentioned twice in the Torah because the donkey had to be unloaded and reloaded. This mitzvah is incumbent on those who generally use donkeys and not on those who never load donkeys. A kohen who sees an overloaded donkey in a cemetary is exempt and if the donkey is more than a certain distance away the person is exempt.
My problem is wondering why someone would overload the donkey in the first place. He knows that someone will have to help him and maybe he is counting on that help but what if the person who must stop and help him is in a hurry? The person can charge money for reloading the donkey but it appears that he has an obligation all the same.