Kids cost anyway in money and time and energy - why not through an organized program? Organizations should continue to subsidize for those in need, and people should support these organizations for all their worthy activities.
There is no question here, Isramom. The issue, 40-something pages back, was for those WITH NO MONEY for camp. If someone has the option, camp is best (if the kids want to go). If there is NO option for camp (no money, no donations forthcoming) then moms need to move on to plan B. Which we have seen IS possible on this thread for some, impossible for others. If you live in a hot sticky apartment in the middle of town and there are no kids around and you have no money for camp, you are "of tzurris" and have to make the best of it. There is no other way.
Well I guess we'll all think twice before complaining publicly b/c people will just complain about our complaining.
It'll be a frosty Friday before you hear me complaining, I'll tell ya! I don't wanna be labelled Lady Kvetch-A-Lot. But the bashing of Mama Bear cuts me to the quick - if this web site is a safe place for us to vent, ask questions, get support, and so on, then MB - and everyone else, for that matter - should feel perfectly comfortable blowing off a little steam when she has a rough day, or rough week. Otherwise, we're fostering a site where all we can talk about is recipes, rainbows, and puppies. Nice, frothy, entertaining but not especially authentic. And not very useful either because I can have superficial and artificial relationships with anyone, but I expect more on a site from Jewish women. This site should be a sisterhood in the truest sense of the word, and I'm reminded of those awful Venus vs. Mars articles which say that "guys always want to fix things so don't complain unless you want a pile of suggestions, because venting is a chick thang". We're all chicks (unless there's been some trollery) so I'm pledging to not try to "fix" anyone else's problems unless they have specifically asked for solutions.
Yes, but that's not what this thread was about. It wasn't a vent.
When MB, or anyone else, brings examples from their lives into a discussion to prove some kind of point, that's not the same as venting. That's inviting ppl to use your life details in the argument.
From what I understood, it was to prove that life for some ppl (American apt dwelling etc. etc.) is harder than for others.
And that's bound to make those others resentful and defensive.
(Mama Bear- this post is NOT about you personally. Lots of hatzlacha to you with everything!)
nothing makes me more infuriated than when a person tries to make others see a difficulty she's dealing with and some "saint" comes in with the "well I have it harder for reasons A.B.and C and IIIIII don't complain! when I was looking for a job and some miss geniious (who posted anonymously because I'm pretty sure I know her in real life) gave me a roayl lecture about how she spent her early marriage scrubbing toilets and if I wasn't willing to become a cleaning lady than I was just looking to complain and not serious about working. the treatment of mam bear smarts of the same nose in the air know it all attitude. those bashing her could learn a bit of empathy. that means, even if you can't offer solutions, offer understanding that isn't followed by a but. your lives are not the standard by which all other suffering must be measured in order to count. jeez.
nothing makes me more infuriated than when a person tries to make others see a difficulty she's dealing with and some "saint" comes in with the "well I have it harder for reasons A.B.and C and IIIIII don't complain! when I was looking for a job and some miss geniious (who posted anonymously because I'm pretty sure I know her in real life) gave me a roayl lecture about how she spent her early marriage scrubbing toilets and if I wasn't willing to become a cleaning lady than I was just looking to complain and not serious about working. the treatment of mam bear smarts of the same nose in the air know it all attitude. those bashing her could learn a bit of empathy. that means, even if you can't offer solutions, offer understanding that isn't followed by a but. your lives are not the standard by which all other suffering must be measured in order to count. jeez.
But the "venter" has to learn to do it without minimizing others' difficulties.
We all have it hard (except those "saints I guess :-) I know ppl like that IRL, plenty of them)
I grew up in a middle class family. Parents were both professionals, owned a house, with 2 cars in our garage, etc. My parents viewed camp as a "luxury." (During the year they had 8 kids worth of tuition to pay for.) We never went on extravagant vacations either. The money coming in was going towards bills and other necessities. Only a handful amount of times did we ever order take-out or buy nosh. Did us kids suffer, miss out, feel neglected? Never. We played outside, sports, with friends, built club/tree houses, explored our imagination, and as siblings, got to hang out together without the pressure of school work.
Fast-forward to the present day, where I am now the parent. I still see camp as a luxury, although, there are extenuating circumstances, but I do not believe the ENTIRE population falls under that category. My kids are still very young (all 7 and under) and when people inquire about camp, I tell them that they are not attending camp. When they hear that they begin to give ME a whole mussar speech. (and this happens far too often)
I'm SORRY, when did we become bad parents for NOT sending our children to camp, especially when we do not have the means? I am not going to collect tziddaka for luxury purposes, or to help people rationalize sending their kids to camp, while the rest of the year collecting tziddaka.
If you are going to send your child to camp when you do not have the money, please do NOT attempt to pressure me or put me down because I don't send my kids.
Seriously, how backwards has this world become? Since when is it a MUST to send your children to playgroup and camp?
nothing makes me more infuriated than when a person tries to make others see a difficulty she's dealing with and some "saint" comes in with the "well I have it harder for reasons A.B.and C and IIIIII don't complain! when I was looking for a job and some miss geniious (who posted anonymously because I'm pretty sure I know her in real life) gave me a roayl lecture about how she spent her early marriage scrubbing toilets and if I wasn't willing to become a cleaning lady than I was just looking to complain and not serious about working. the treatment of mam bear smarts of the same nose in the air know it all attitude. those bashing her could learn a bit of empathy. that means, even if you can't offer solutions, offer understanding that isn't followed by a but. your lives are not the standard by which all other suffering must be measured in order to count. jeez.
But the "venter" has to learn to do it without minimizing others' difficulties.
We all have it hard (except those "saints I guess :-) I know ppl like that IRL, plenty of them)
ITA. When I started reading Tweedledee's post I thought she was saying Mama Bear was out of line, until I read the end.
Sorry. What you said, Tweedledee, applies just as much to MB as those answering her. She wrote posts on this thread showing how her life is just so much harder than everyone else's. I actually think things are (or I hope, were) particularly tough for her, but once you start competing and saying (not talking now about MB, davka) 'I am entitled to things because my life is harder than others' - especially when you have no idea how other people live - it will invite comments back explaining how other people have different problems.
I think the problem here was the turn this particular thread took, with some posters trying to prove why for them something was a need, which other posters feel is a want/ luxury.
If posters had started a different thread just asking to vent about their difficult day/week/lives, I think they would have only received sympathy and support.
The reason parents don't let their kids out to play unsupervised isn't that the world is somehow worse or more "sick" these days. Crime is no higher than it was back when our parents were growing up.
People are just less willing to take risks, or else they see the risk-benefit balance differently. At some point, people stopped seeing certain risks (like the one in a million chance of stranger abduction while playing) as just a part of life, and started seeing it as a parent's job to make sure that even those risks wouldn't be taken.
The level of risk is lower in Israel. Yes, we have criminals here too, but relative to America the risk of violent crime is significantly smaller.
And on most yishuvim, parents really do let their older kids and even little kids run around and play outside. Go to Mitzpe Yericho or Bat Ayin, or even to bigger "suburban" yishuvim like Efrat and Beitar Illit, and I'm sure you'll see groups of kids around age 7-10 playing alone together outside, something that would be considered parental negligence in the states.
If someone wants to start a thread venting about how hard it is to go places with kids on a bus (for example), I wouldn't belittle her difficulties and might even join in the vent.
But if someone wants to talk about how any woman who has to deal with taking kids on a bus will agree that it's simply not possible as a daily thing, as part of a larger debate, that's a different story.
And if someone starts talking about how it's so much harder for them in ways that people elsewhere couldn't possibly understand - then like shalhevet said, that's belittling someone else's difficulties, and anyone who does so shouldn't be offended if the people they're talking about then turn around and do the same to them.
It's not PC nowadays to leave kids unsupervised, or not know where they are.
The world has become more seeing and hearing via technology, and the right to see and hear seeps into our consciousness as parents. There is more awareness of people behaving improperly to kids, and of stuff kids get into when left to their own devices. There is less willingness to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear, and more accontability demanded.
So if Mommy can take the burden on her shoulders, great. For many, that's overwhelming, and a chessed to help these families.
I did not get the feeling that MB was saying her life was harder than the rest. Just that these and these were the issues and this is why she felt camp was a necessity in some cases. That isn't a comparison.
It's not PC nowadays to leave kids unsupervised, or not know where they are.
The world has become more seeing and hearing via technology, and the right to see and hear seeps into our consciousness as parents. There is more awareness of people behaving improperly to kids, and of stuff kids get into when left to their own devices. There is less willingness to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear, and more accontability demanded.
"Not PC" - it depends where. My parents didn't always know exactly where I was as a teen. Some summers, they knew which state I'd gone to with a youth group but not much more than that.
It's not about being willfully ignorant of the dangers or lacking awareness. You think parents didn't read about terrible crimes 30 or 50 years ago and didn't fear for their kids?
The question is priorities. Some prioritize safety at all costs, some prioritize independence even at the cost of risks, most find a middle ground at some point.
I'm not saying that parents who want to supervise their children are doing something wrong (well, depending on the age - if a parent always needs to know exactly where a normal 16-year-old is I'd think that's strange), but I think it's also not right to say that parents who supervise less are irresponsible or negligent by definition. Some parents don't supervise because of negligence, but many others have made a conscious decision that works for their family.
Last edited by ora_43 on Fri, Jul 08 2011, 2:52 am; edited 1 time in total
I did not get the feeling that MB was saying her life was harder than the rest. Just that these and these were the issues and this is why she felt camp was a necessity in some cases. That isn't a comparison.
If you're talking about what I said or what shalhevet and curlgirl said, I think we all agreed that we weren't talking about Mama Bear's posts.
I don't know where other "older" posters like me grew up but when I was a kid in NY in the 60s lots of areas including mine were crime ridden and kids didn't go out to "play" alone. We also didn't disappear for hours of time without our parents knowing exactly where we were and where we were going to be and if we were traveling to a friend's house by bus or train to call our parens even to work as soon as we got there. And I'm talking 1965, 1968, 1970 when some of the poster's mothers were barely born.
Once upon a time kids who didn't go to camp, didn't have a/c (yeah, think of that too...) in those days and lived in the city really did sit in front of the tv part of the day. so? Today it's computer. There was good stuff and there was junk. Just like today on TV and computers. And there were no DVDs and discs and other things with good educational stuff. So? No one died from it. No one died from unstructured time and no one died from hours of cartoons when they were younger and hours of "the lucy show" when they were preteens.
We all - at least all my friends, few of whom went to camp, grew up to be good Jewish religious girls, women mothers and today grandmothers.
Second, when someone posts a vent about their lives on an internet board, don't be surprised when others pick you apart and look for ways to give you constructive criticism about how to make the bad things that you think are bad, better. Because when you gently complain once, there is a chance you will get sympathy but when you complain about it several times, people are going to want to help. Sometimes help comes along with mussar when people think that you are doing something wrong. No one told them they had to tell you but no one told you that you had to listen, and in the first place, when the impetus to "vent" which is another word for "complain" comes from YOU, then you shouldn't be surprised when someone listening tries to solve your "complaint". You may not like what she has to say but then hey, that's the price for venting in public. You can only control what comes out of YOUR mouth or keyboard in this case, not someone elses.
And finally, I was brought up by parents who went through a Holocaust, a world war, that turned hundreds of millions of people's lives upside down overnight. Millions were killed. Additional millions found themselves in battle zones overnight with nothing, fleeing for their lives. I was brought up to be self sufficient and know that it is possibly all temporary and you have to know how to cope if chas vesholom things change overnight, otherwise guess what ladies? You die.
Our guys here in the army know that. That's why in basic training they are forced to do things which are physically unbearably demanding in some cases, under supervision, to show themselves that if it DOES happen, they can survive. You ladies living in America think it can't happen? I'm not talking HOlocaust, I'm not even talking war, but I'm talking natural disaster which can be so bad that the governments can't take care of you...and I'm not talking survival skills, which are actually very important, but knowing basically how to cope with the lives that you have created for yourselves...believe me, it can happen and if you can't cope with the basics of taking care of your kids every day, which it sounds like some posters here can't, then how would you cope then?
You may laugh at me, you may say "she's nuts", you may say "she's an old fogie who sounds like my grandmother", you may say "in such cases it's all siata dishmaya", and who knows, maybe you are right....but it still sounds incredible to me that people who claim straight out that they are incapable already of coping on their own, without "communal organizations", without "zedoko based sistainability" etc. are not looking for a way to become sustainable without handouts, don't think that there is something insane in the life they are creating and advocating, and not only that, think that everyone should participate in this unsustainability and turn it into a virtue giving it "Jewish" attributes.
Ladies, I hope that you are never put to the test. Because there is nothing new under the sun. SN kids always existed, wanting more always existed, mothers' exhaustion always existed, wanting to make a nice Bar mitzva but not having enough money to pay for the lekakh even always existed, venting always existed, and giving aitzes and mussar about other people's lives always existed. And unfortunately the tables turning upside down, war, disaster, losing everything, and whatever always existed. And will continue to exist, whether in your generation or the next.
Make yourselves a sustainable life without having to beg alms to support it.
Learn to cope with the situation in which you live or try to change that situation to something you can cope with easier.
Listen to people giving advice, throw away what doesn't work, take what does and if you don't like the tone, just ignore it and move on.
Last edited by freidasima on Fri, Jul 08 2011, 3:24 am; edited 1 time in total
And yes, I agree, yishuv life IS laid back. Not in terms of errands, that I agree is tougher with everything out of reach. But there are definitely fewer errands, less things to erledig. And I know this firsthand, so don't just dismiss this claim by calling me a chutznik.
Explain what you mean then? Won't dismiss it.
The only way its more laid back is less horn honking and less traffic.
And less furnished apartments so less cleaning to do, less questionable elements on the street so more unsupervised kiddie play on the streets, almost all houses are flats so less exhausting stair climbing to do, smaller population so less simchas to attend and prepare for and get ready for, fewer school hours so fewer homework and less tasks for a mother, and on and on.
Kitov, I am not sure what yishuv you live on, but where I lived (and will live again soon) and where I have friends and family, the things that you wrote dont really jive.
less furnished apartments so less cleaning to do - have you seen the sizes of some houses now on yishuvim? some are very very very large.
less questionable elements on the street so more unsupervised play on the streets - again, I dont know where you lived, but the yishuvim that I know, there is NO playing on the street at all during the week. Children know that on shabbat it is ok, but during the week? Never.
Again, about houses being flat, less stair climbing, the yishuv where I lived, there are are almost no one story homes, mostly two and three floor homes.
Fewer school hours - I am not sure why this would be different for yishuvim children than city dwelling children.
Well my kids play on the street as do most of their friends. I mean on the street, not just outside...but then our street dead-ends. Kids also play on other streets, again, mostly dead-ends but there are several streets like that. There are also several parks and lots where the kids run free. It really isn't playing IN the streets as much as they are out of the house and everywhere...just running about...and till quite late as well. Most of my 12 year olds friends are up till late; though many times that means they are in our living-room!
That doesn't mean that camp isn't necessary for some kids. It is; whether on a Yishuv or not.
I think that it has more to do with living on a dead end street. Where I grew up in new jersey there were some dead end roads and kids played there freely as well.
But on the actual streets? In my yishuv there is active traffic all of the time, except for shabbat.
I did not get the feeling that MB was saying her life was harder than the rest. Just that these and these were the issues and this is why she felt camp was a necessity in some cases. That isn't a comparison.
If you're talking about what I said or what shalhevet and curlgirl said, I think we all agreed that we weren't talking about Mama Bear's posts.
friedasima, you were one of the posters saying you didn't always know where your children were for days. Now you're saying it hasn't been PC to let kids play unsupervised since the 60s? I'm a bit confused.
I don't think you're any older than my parents. They were both allowed to go out with friends or siblings as older kids, even in crime-ridden areas, although of course not all crime-ridden areas are created equal.
I don't know where other "older" posters like me grew up but when I was a kid in NY in the 60s lots of areas including mine were crime ridden and kids didn't go out to "play" alone. We also didn't disappear for hours of time without our parents knowing exactly where we were and where we were going to be and if we were traveling to a friend's house by bus or train to call our parens even to work as soon as we got there. And I'm talking 1965, 1968, 1970 when some of the poster's mothers were barely born.
We played outside, in the empty lots and in similar places. We learned not to run in the street, don't go off with strangers. There was a strangler who came to town and for a short period life was more restricted, but for the most part not.
Most people when pressed will survive. Come a holocaust some people who think they will survive won't some who seem to be "helpless now" will.
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... it still sounds incredible to me that people who claim straight out that they are incapable already of coping on their own, without "communal organizations", without "zedoko based sistainability" etc. are not looking for a way to become sustainable without handouts, don't think that there is something insane in the life they are creating and advocating, and not only that, think that everyone should participate in this unsustainability and turn it into a virtue giving it "Jewish" attributes.
A sustainable life at one point meant given up Shabbat...and I DO know this because the way my grandmother's family survived is because the DAUGHTERS worked on Shabbat and Dad turned his head and looked the other way. My great-grandmother became irreligious because she was forced to support her brother's education and her father wanted her to marry a 60 man, as he was the only frum guy in the area.
Tzeddakah has always been with us. There have always been people who have had to rely on tzeddakah in one form or another. OR they ended up in horrific conditions.
Quote:
Listen to people giving advice, throw away what doesn't work, take what does and if you don't like the tone, just ignore it and move on.
With that I agree.
Know-everything people often have blinders are. Ignore them. You are not what others judge you as, you are what G-d judges you to be.
I think that it has more to do with living on a dead end street. Where I grew up in new jersey there were some dead end roads and kids played there freely as well.
But on the actual streets? In my yishuv there is active traffic all of the time, except for shabbat.
That was my point. Camp is a necessity for some because their life circumstances make it a necessity, NOT because they live on a Yishuv, have a special needs child, homeschool, or work. There are a lot of factors, including personalities of the child and the parents and others who might be able to help.
Ora MY kids grew up in EY when it was safer to go away for however long. I (capital) grew up in inner Queens in New York City in an area known for its irish drunks and later druggies. It was NOT safe in my neck of the woods to let a child play outside without parents standing there and watching. It WAS b"h safe for my kids in a different country and at a different time and place. That's what I was saying when people write that older people could always play outside bla bla bla. Maybe in the suburbs but not in inner city NY in the 1960s. So there is no contradiction. That BTW is one of the reasons that I - with all my criticism of EY and I have - was so happy to raise my kids here where on a daily basis they could do things I could not do 25 years earlier in the good old US of A.
HR zedoko may have always been with us but is it what people should count on? You may have played in empty lots, in Queens where I grew up, inner city kind of queens (think Long Island City, sunny side etc. near the bridge) there were no lots to play in, just building after building with a neighborhood playground that parents would take turns watching the kids because there were druggies in the corner.
What you write about "most people will survive" has been proven by studies of the Holocaust in particular and of long term disaster in general not to be true. They don't. In long term situations many people do NOT cope and survive don't kid yourself.
A sustainable life NEVER meant giving up shabbat. There was ALWAYS an alternative. If you are talking about NYC one could ALWAYS peddle, sell from door to door, become a kli kodesh, a melamed, open a stall and close it on shabbos. The problem was you had to also close it on sunday because of the "blue laws" but that's life. That meant working 5 and not 6 days a week and earning less. I know many many many frum people who moved to America between 1881 and 1914 - the great immigration wave, who did NOT give up shabbos. Many did, mainly because someone convinced them that this was "minhog america" and they were either too young or too scared to think differently. But others did not. It takes ingenuity and creative thinking but it was DEFINTELY possible. And to be a frum Jew you DO have to think creatively, including today if you want the type of lifestyle that holds from having many many children.
But in my book thinking creatively is NOT zedoko.
What I don't get is that chas vesholom there are situations which come up suddenly in life that turn things upside down and then people really do take zedoko to get over that situation. But here we are talking about milechaschila planning a life for which one will DEFINITELY need to take zedoko.
What kind of Jew ever lived like that once he knew that there were alternatives?
Why are some people going back to the worst of shtetl life here and trying to convince others that it is "normal" and even "laudable"?
I think it's silly to mix needing tzedaka now and capability to survive in case of disaster. There are millions of people who live a much more comfortable lifestyle than those who need tzedaka, if you want to worry that people who aren't used to doing without won't survive a disaster why not start there? It's not like everyone who knows how to be self-sufficient by working on Wall Street or fixing noses or the like knows how to be self sufficient in a war zone.
