Stigma of Thanksgiving in frum world

anonymrs

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 9:18 am

ectomorph wrote:

Every day is Thanksgiving for us!

I have heard people say that it's not a Jewish concept because we should be thankful every day. Same with mother's day and father's day. Parents should be appreciated every day of the year.

chanatron1000

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 9:22 am

We remember yetzias mitzrayim every day but Pesach is still Pesach.

↑ ittsamother

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 9:25 am

anonymrs wrote:

I have heard people say that it's not a Jewish concept because we should be thankful every day. Same with mother's day and father's day. Parents should be appreciated every day of the year.

I'm staying out of the Thanksgiving debate as I don't have any additional info or knowledge about it, but as far as this point, you could appreciate your parents every day of the year but still give them extra attention on Mother's/Father's Day. I mean, people often celebrate M/F day by giving a card, flowers, chocolates, a gift, or having a little get together, etc, and don't tell me the average person is doing that every day of the year, or even any other day of the year : ) There's nothing wrong with having a set day as a reminder that if you haven't explicitly expressed your appreciation to them in some way until now, here's a good opportunity to make sure to do so.

(Whereas any Jew who's davening every day is therefore thanking Hashem every day, and many will thank Hashem throughout the day even if they didn't get a chance to daven.)

mommm

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 9:29 am

I find it very off putting! Someone asked a innocent question and everyone that hasn't heard of a problem is "paskening"
The big rule should be if you have never heard of it being a problem and now you did FIND OUT
You decided that you can't imagine it being a problem so you belittle it! It's kind of mind boggling

↑ 2cents

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 10:22 am

chanatron1000 wrote:

We remember yetzias mitzrayim every day but Pesach is still Pesach.

Yes but pesach is a mitzvah D'oraysa. Thanksgiving is not. Hashem didn't choose to include that in our mesorah.

↑ estherj ↓

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 10:40 am

OP and I’m sure many others assumed it was a yeshivish stigma like listening to a sports game. She didn’t realize that it is a serious Halacha shaila, there are poskim on both sides, and even those who are meikel don’t allow the ritualistic holiday aspect of celebrating it.

Cheiny

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 5:05 pm

Contemporary Rulings

As with many issues in halacha, there are different approaches to Thanksgiving observance. In fact, Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l alone has written four different responsa on topic[11]. Although in the earlier teshuvos he seems to be against the idea of a Thanksgiving celebration, (possibly there were more religious connotations involved in the early 1960s celebrations than in the 1980s), nevertheless, in his later teshuvos he does allow a Thanksgiving observance (he notes that it is not a religious celebration) with turkey being served, as long as it is not seen as an obligatory annual celebration[12], but rather as a periodical ‘simchas reshus’. All the same, Rav Moshe concludes that it is still preferable not to have a celebration b’davka for Thanksgiving.

Other contemporary poskim who allowed eating turkey on Thanksgiving include Rav Eliezer Silver, Rav Yosef Dov (J.B.) Soloveitchik (the Boston Gaon)[13], the Rivevos Efraim,[14] and Rabbi Yehuda Hertzl Henkin.[15] They explain that Thanksgiving is “only a day of thanks and not, Heaven forbid, for idol celebration”. Therefore, they maintain that merely eating turkey on Thanksgiving cannot be considered Chukos HaGoyim.

On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a ‘holiday’ and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving’s origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday[17].

Similarly, Rav Menashe Klein[18] ruled that it is a prohibited to celebrate Thanksgiving. Aside for citing the Gr”a’s opinion, which would prohibit any such celebration, he mentions that although the Thanksgiving holiday was originally established by (Pilgrims) rejoicing over their own survival, that they didn’t starve due to their finding the turkey, and might not be considered Chukos HaGoyim, nevertheless there is another prohibition involved. In Yoreh De’ah (148, 7), the Shulchan Aruch, based on a Mishna in Maseches Avodah Zara (8a), rules that if an idolater makes a personal holiday for various reasons (birthday, was let out of jail, etc.) and at that party he thanks his gods, it is prohibited to join in that celebration. Rav Klein posits that the same would apply to Thanksgiving, as it commemorates the original Pilgrim Thanksgiving, thanking G-d for the turkey and their survival, and would be certainly prohibited, and possibly even biblically.

An analogous ruling was given by Rav Dovid Cohen (of Gevul Ya’avetz), and Rav Feivel Cohen (author of the Badei HaShulchan)[19], albeit for different reasons. Rav Feivel Cohen takes a seemingly extreme position, maintaining that not only is it forbidden for a Jew to celebrate Thanksgiving, it is even prohibited for a Gentile to do so as well[20]! Rav Dovid Cohen, on the other hand, writes that for a Jew to eat turkey on Thanksgiving expressly for the sake of the holiday should be prohibited by the rule of Tosafos, as it would be deemed following an irrational rule of theirs that is improper to follow. Yet, he concedes that it is not prohibited for a family to get together on a day off from work and eat turkey together, as long as they do so not to celebrate Thanksgiving, but rather because they like turkey. Even so, he concludes that it is still preferable not to do so.

Trotting Out the Turkey?

With several differing major approaches to Thanksgiving advanced by contemporary authorities, which is the prevailing custom? Should turkey be on our plates this Thursday? The answer is that it depends. As shown, there are many authorities who maintain that Thanksgiving dinner should be avoided at all costs. However, many people do eat turkey on Thanksgiving, albeit many with non-Thankgiving related intent. (Remember, even kosher turkey prices drop for the holiday!) Yet, it certainly seems preferable not make an ‘exclusively for Thanksgiving’ party. Everyone should follow his community practice and the lead of their knowledgeable halachic authority.

Anecdotally, my own grandmother, Mrs. Ruth Spitz (May she have a Refuah Sheleimah), would buy a turkey, but instead of serving it for Thanksgiving dinner, would rather save it and serve it l’kavod Shabbos on the Shabbos immediately following Thanksgiving. This way one is not compromising on tradition nor halacha, and additionally receives the benefits of kavod and oneg Shabbos.

Although nowadays for many in Yeshivish and Chassidic circles the idea of observing even some semblance of Thanksgiving may seem an anathema, it is interesting to note that many authorities of the previous generation did not seem overly concerned. In fact, as is widely known, the annual Agudas Yisrael Convention, attended by many Gedolim, was traditionally held over Thanksgiving weekend for many decades, with turkey on the menu[21]! Additionally, Rav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin’s authoritative Ezras Torah calendar (with halachos for the whole year) noted Thanksgiving along with other secular holidays.

Come what may, with Chanuka on the way, we can concentrate on the upcoming eight days of true thanks-giving, lehodos u’lehallel. In fact, although there will be no need to be talking turkey while giving thanks, on Chanuka we still all proclaim “Hodu Lashem Ki Tov!”

https://ohr.edu/6105

watergirl ↓

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 5:16 pm

BT here. I love Thanksgiving. No one else in my family is frum, so this is the one time we can all get together (either I host or the host caters kosher) on a "holiday".

If you are an FFB, I'm assuming your family has many gatherings around the year that BTs like me can not relate to at all, like the Chanukah parties every night of Chanukah, or the stress of the big family Purim seuda, etc.

Hamavdil, but to people like me, Thanksgiving is the equivalent of a Chanukah party. Is it still Chanukah without parties? Of course it is! So why the parties, as if it's a halacha of the holiday? We don't have the families to do the parties with, or to do chaggim with. Our families gather in a holiday manner on Thanksgiving, and we go and its ok to love it.

Every single year there are a few Thanksgiving threads and there are always the typical "every day is Thanksgiving" comments. I wish those people would remember people like me, who have this one time.

Yom tovim - our families drive back and forth. Chanukah, they want to come and light at noon. I can't really explain it but this is just different.

It would be amazing if people would remember that this website has many kinds of people.

I don't need to see a psak, I don't need sources. I don't need to hear what rav says what. I really don't care. I have my own psak, I have my own rav. My husband and I do that. And it means we have turkey, stuffing, gravy, mashed potatos, two kinds of pie, the weird sweet potato with marshmallow thing, yummy rolls, and more. AND I LOVE IT.

My parents/in-laws, family, they want to go around the table and be cheesy and say what we are all thankful for - so we do. Because they are not coming to our seders. They are not coming on Rosh Hashana. Sukkos is too hot or too cold, they are not coming. This is it.

Last edited by watergirl on Thu, Nov 21 2024, 5:20 pm; edited 2 times in total

↑ Molly Weasley ↓

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 5:16 pm

singleagain wrote:

Why is Turkey considered avoda zara?

I think its a misquote. It's probably chukas hagoyim

vintagebknyc

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 5:25 pm

watergirl wrote:

I feel exactly the same way. It's catered kosher at my brother's house and I get to bake and bring pie. And more pie. And more pie. In fact, it's time to get out my pie decorating utensils. I'm pretty elaborate with my crust decor.

↑ estherj

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 5:39 pm

watergirl wrote:

OP was trying to figure out why yeshivish people have this stigma. I think the issues were explained quite well above. Of course a sole frum BT in a non frum family is a whole different story. I wouldn’t be surprised if an experienced Rav would say that given the situation it’s a MITZVAH to attend the family Thanksgiving get together. This way you have the zechus of ensuring that everyone is eating kosher at least for one day a year, and hopefully having frum participants at the gathering will help them perceive authentic Judaism in a more positive light.

Last edited by estherj on Thu, Nov 21 2024, 5:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ giftedmom ↓

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 5:40 pm

watergirl wrote:

No one cares that you love thanksgiving and why. But to be mad that it’s not a thing in the Frum world and schools aren’t giving off is ridiculous.

↑ write4right

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 5:56 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

There are a few things being conflated here: Any American Jewish life before the war, and early American Jewish life. Sadly, I don't know what peiros people who were here pre-Civil War and even a little later had.
And we know about the attrition even later. In Europe too but especially in the US.
Even so, there was definitely vibrant Jewish life in the US before the war. It wasn't easy, though. The main battleground was Shabbos. By the time the survivors came, that battle still existed but things were much easier.

Your history is wrong. There are fewer Jews in America before the Civil war, so obviously there are fewer Jewish descendants. The major Jewish migration happened well before the second world war, it started in the 1880s. My great grandparents were part of that one. And there are so many others that I have no fear of identifying myself by sharing this information under my screen name.

The Shabbos battleground was worse later than earlier. My great-grandparents and the people who came with that wave had much fewer issues when it came to Shabbos. Those who came starting in 1920s '30s are the ones who had the biggest struggle with Shabbos. For most American Jews, though, Shabbos wasn't the biggest challenge any more than it is now it is.

The biggest challenge at that time was Jewish education. Setting up a Jewish school system took time. There was actually a very similar thing going on in Eastern Europe at the exact same time. From when the public school mandates went into effect in both America and Poland until a proper Jewish alternative schooling system was fully set up just took a lot of time. But there were many Jewish schools for both boys and girls well before the second world war. It might not surprise you that it wasn't simple to change the culture to convince people to send to a Jewish school at all costs. As we know this wasn't just an issue 100 years ago, it's still an issue today.

The survivors brought many great things to America, but they can't take credit for the work of the people before. By the time the survivors arrived, there were many Jewish schools and Shuls and communities. Of course they contributed but they aren't the source of them.

↑ watergirl

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 6:02 pm

giftedmom wrote:

No one cares that you love thanksgiving and why. But to be mad that it’s not a thing in the Frum world and schools aren’t giving off is ridiculous.

I love that my kids have school Thanksgiving morning, I didn’t say anything otherwise. I did not even mention School in my post. I also didn’t say that I’m mad it’s not a thing in the frum community. Where are you getting that from?

↑ mother51 ↓

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 6:19 pm

chanatron1000 wrote:

We remember yetzias mitzrayim every day but Pesach is still Pesach.

THIS!

shanarishona

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 6:48 pm

I’ve been meaning to post this in reading room forum but since it keeps coming up here -
Is there any way I could get ahold of Etka Gittel Schwartz’s book about Charleston during the time of the civil war?

↑ giftedmom

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 7:34 pm

watergirl wrote:

The op

↑ mother51 ↓

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 8:11 pm

giftedmom wrote:

The op

Hi to clarify I live oot where we have off for every fed holiday so for them to stop giving off for thanksgiving but still give off for Labor Day, Presidents’ Day etc is crazy to me. I’m not in any way saying that’s it’s crazy that Lakewood skls aren’t giving off just schools in my position.

↑ Molly Weasley

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 8:15 pm

mother51 wrote:

In short,

Labor day, president's day, etc do not have ANY religious undertones, Thanksgiving does according to a large chunk of religious Jewry

↑ mother51

Thu, Nov 21 2024, 8:20 pm

Molly Weasley wrote:

In short,

Labor day, president's day, etc do not have ANY religious undertones, Thanksgiving does according to a large chunk of religious Jewry

Ok well said