Science vs Torah. And the winner is....

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Fri, Aug 31 2007, 11:53 am

Motek wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

There's also Ressen the "Ir Hagedolah" and it has no connection to EY.

The ir ha'gedola refers to Ninvei which the Medrash describes as a huge city. Sometimes 'big' can actually refer to size!

You are correct on this. My apologies.

Tammy

Sue DaNym ↓

Fri, Aug 31 2007, 12:57 pm

well, I just got here, but I can say that I agree with most of what hte op wrote.

I think its the minchas chincuch that tells us that no animals go extinct. and I'm fairly certain that the source for eretz yisroel being higher than anyplace else is a rashi.

personally, I also think the moon landing is false. it says hashamayim shamayim lahashem vehaaretz nasan livnei adam. we cant go to the heavens... its hashems realm.

I also think that most of science is made up to try to distance us from the aibesheter. I dont know about the rest of the ops statements offhand but ill try to look into them later

↑ Ruchel ↓

Sat, Sep 01 2007, 1:15 pm

Quote:

most of science is made up to try to distance us from the aibesheter.

I think scientists just try to see how the world is, in a neutral way. Not our approach, but not necessarily AGAINST us.
I find science is a good proof of the greatness and complexity of G-d’s creation. It works too well, cannot be a mere coincidence that it happened that way.
"a little bit of science brings away from G-d, a lot of science brings back"

catonmylap ↓

Sat, Sep 01 2007, 11:45 pm

Quote:

[quote="Sue DaNym"]well, I just got here, but I can say that I agree with most of what hte op wrote.

I think its the minchas chincuch that tells us that no animals go extinct.

What about the dinosaurs?

Quote:

and I'm fairly certain that the source for eretz yisroel being higher than anyplace else is a rashi.

Higher in Kedusha--it's not literal.

Quote:

personally, I also think the moon landing is false. it says hashamayim shamayim lahashem vehaaretz nasan livnei adam. we cant go to the heavens... its hashems realm.

The Heavens are not part of this earth/universe.

I think this is a shocking thread all around. I am a bit shocked that the original op and her supporters actually believe that. And that group is surprised that many of us don't!

I always saw science and Torah as totally compatible. Rashi & Rambam were regular people who only knew the science of their day. They are not the Torah, but commentators and great sages who studied the Torah. Just because they said something does not mean it is meant to be literal (it depends on the context etc).

Science lets us understand the beauty of Hashem's creation so much more clearly. It's an excellent tool for getting closer to Hashem.

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Sun, Sep 02 2007, 6:46 pm

dinosaurs never existed they ones in museums are made of plaster and are fakes. nothing goes extinct - its in the minchas hachinuch and therefore is in the torah.

rashi says that eretz yisroel is higher in a way that it means physically higher, not spiritually higher. of course, it is spiritually higher too.

the earth is the earth. anything else over the atmosphere is the heavens. the torah clearly describes the sun and moon as part of the heavens: see devarim perek daled pasuk yud ches.

im personally a bit shocked too -- that people are willing to discard what the torah teaches us in the name of false "science"

↑ TzenaRena ↓

Sun, Sep 02 2007, 7:32 pm

catonmylap wrote:

Rashi & Rambam were regular people who only knew the science of their day. They are not the Torah, but commentators and great sages who studied the Torah. Just because they said something does not mean it is meant to be literal (it depends on the context etc).

You're contradicting yourself. A great sage is a regular person????

Piper ↓

Sun, Sep 02 2007, 9:47 pm

Sue DaNym wrote:

And how do you explain away dinosaur fossil remains?
And are you saying that Eretz Israel is located at a higher altitude, than, lets say, Mt. Everest?

suomynona ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 1:31 am

Sue DaNym wrote:

I didn't know there were people that don't believe that men landed on the moon.

Ribbie Danzinger ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 7:29 am

Interestingly, I just saw a reply to a question on the net that when the Talmud (Shvuot 29a) describes something that is impossible, it mentions "a camel running through the air" (a flying camel), whereas the Rambam (Shmonah Perakim ch. 1) describes "an iron ship running through the air" as something which is the epitome of an impossibility. If we consider an airplane as "an iron ship running through the air" (which in my opinion is a legitimate description of an airplane), we can learn from this that the sanctity of the Rishonim in the Talmud was on a level that makes their words irrefutable, however the sages of later generations may have made mistakes based on the scientific knowledge available in their days.

Or maybe there is somebody out there who doesn't believe in airplanes?

Tehilla ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 7:34 am

Quote:

Rashi & Rambam were regular people who only knew the science of their day.

that's the first mistake. to say a great sage is a regular person?

they are holy sages whose work should be learned and held dear.
the Torah is holy, and true. and if our Chumash has Rashi's commentary added in...I don't see yours or mine there.

Torah has always and will always win against science.

zeldy ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 7:38 am

I find this thread hard to believe. You people who don't believe that men have walked on the moon, do you also believe the videos of these are fakes? Do you also believe that this is what Judaism requires of you to think and everyone else is wrong? Or a heretic?

↑ HindaRochel ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 8:19 am

Tehilla wrote:

Quote:

Rashi & Rambam were regular people who only knew the science of their day.

I am fairly certain the poster meant that they were human beings and not immortals, subject to making errors and judgement, limited to the knowledge at hand.

↑ HindaRochel ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 8:22 am

suomynona wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

I didn't know there were people that don't believe that men landed on the moon.

There are people who believe the earth is flat as well. Does it really pay to argue with them? I think it is interesting that hse calls herself pseudonym but maybe that is my suspicious nature in overdrive.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 9:19 am

I can't argue anymore because this is all so ridiculous. It's hard to pick which is the most shocking. dh thinks that E"y being higher than Mount Everest tops it. I think its the false moon landing!

But I'd like to know:

1. Were you taught to think this way in school?

2. What segment of orthodox Jewry would you say you belong to?

My dh says its a different world from when we were kids in school. If we had came home with such ideas, my parents would have pulled us out and sent us to a different school. I can't imagine any haredi people I know thinking this way; they all are too smart.

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 9:51 am

Piper wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

And how do you explain away dinosaur fossil remains?
And are you saying that Eretz Israel is located at a higher altitude, than, lets say, Mt. Everest?

theyre fakes planted and produced by atheiests and the yetzer hara/satan to get us to abandon the torah... sadly it seems to have worked.

rashi says that eretz yisroel is the highest land and the contextin which he says it shows that its talking about physicalreality nto spiritualy. so, if rashi tells me one thing and "scientists" tell me the opposite, who am I going to believe? youd better believe that I'm going to trust rashi first!

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 9:53 am

Ribbie Danzinger wrote:

no, I believe in airplanes, bcuz it was impossible in the rambams time but is now. but I dont think that eretz yisroel changed altitude between the time of the gemara andnow. nor do I think that the moon moved from shamayim to aretz in the timesince dovid sang tehillim.

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 9:55 am

zeldy wrote:

yes,the vids were fakd! the whole thing was shot on a hollywood sound stage. you can even check out on the web the evidence that it was faked.

the pasuk says hashamayim shamayim lahashem. and the moon is in shamayim as shown by the pasuk I quoted earlier.

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 10:12 am

HindaRochel wrote:

suomynona wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

I didn't know there were people that don't believe that men landed on the moon.

I call myself sue danym becuase "sue" is a short form of my first name and it is a play on "psudonym" I like puns and word plays.

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 10:34 am

catonmylap wrote:

The Great Moon Hoax- http://science.nasa.gov/headli.....2.htm

welll of course nasa is going to say it wasnt a fake. if it was theyd go out of business! theres no reason to believe anyof what they say.