Puppy - how people feel about it

amother

Smokey

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 6:15 am

BH Yom Yom wrote:

Thank you for the kind words, thunderstorm. I feel strongly about this and that it’s important for people to adopt animals only if they are prepared for what it realistically entails. The pattern of “adopt, keep for a few weeks/ months, get rid of pets” is unfortunately common, especially among frum people. People don’t necessarily grasp that pet ownership is a commitment. Often they think, “oh, it would be fun for the kids if we got a dog/ cat/ lizard/ chicken/ bunny/ hamster/ sheep etc.” and then once 1) the novelty wears off, 2) cleaning the litter box/ habitat/ regular walks and “pooper scooping” becomes a daily activity 3) vet and food bills start adding up 4) certain relatives/ friends are uncomfortable visiting or 5) care for the pet becomes more of a chore than a fun experience, that’s when pets start to get returned, rehomed or abandoned c”v. If someone is unprepared to make this commitment - it’s better to find other ways of spending time with animals (volunteer with a shelter, pet-sit for people who go out of town, etc.).

Another thing - it’s CRUCIAL to make sure that both spouses (and any children who will be responsible for pet care) are on board with adopting and caring for the pet. If the main caregiver(s) is sick or otherwise unavailable, other members of the household need to be prepared to step in.

If you go out of town, the pet needs to have care prearranged with someone who can handle all aspects of daily care and who is prepared and willing to take the pet to the vet (regular or emergency) should the need arise c”v.

Stepping off my soap box now (temporarily) so that the kittens I’m fostering can use it as a jungle gym. Laugh

What I don’t understand as well , don’t these families create a bond with the pet? Don’t they love the puppy after having it in the family for a while?
And then just to give it back?? I do not understand
This aside from the responsibility aspect
We have a cat and he is absolutely part of the family and much beloved

Rappel ↓

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 6:24 am

Stars wrote:

I'm so curious why a puppy is less kosher than a (non kosher) fish, a turtle, a (non kosher) bird or a bunny. If anyone has any insight on this I would like to hear.

The gemara says a Jew should not own a dangerous dog.

But unless OP got herself a Rottweiler with unstable genes, then I think it's just prejudice on the part of her neighbours.

Congrats on your new pet, OP! Enjoy him!

↑ BH Yom Yom ↓

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 7:52 am

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

1000% agreed! I love my pets and they are absolutely part of my family. I wish every pet owner felt a loving connection to their animals.

amother

Rose ↓

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 7:54 am

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

My family got a dog when I was single. I was no longer living at home. I love dogs but it is looked down upon. I warned my parents before that if they would get one, it could effect my shidduchim (which weren't easy to begin with since my family doesn't have the best name for other reasons). I also told them that if after I got married, my husband wasn't ok with it, they would need to do something. I don't think they believed me. Now, if they want us to come for Shabbos, they need to find a dog sitter bc my husband won't go there otherwise.
I am not sure what your Hashkafa is but it will definitely put a stigma in you if you identify as mainstream or live in that type of community (in town or oot).

Identify as mainstream what? The mind boggles at these ethnocentric statements. Mainstream doesn't equal Lakewood yeshivish, you know.

It's very demanding and rude, IMO, of your husband to demand your parents kick out their dog in order for him to come Shabbat.

SacN ↓

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 7:58 am

Quote:

In israel, in the dati leumi communities as well. But you would never (or almost never) see one in the charedi world here. Maybe thats part of it.
Some communities are fine with this and some are completely against the idea.

This. In charedi circles its not done (for Torah sources that aren't explicit, but have become cultural). It then self perpetuates. People don't do it because people don't do it, and people are afraid because they aren't used to it. I have two friends with dogs - there are real social repercussions for them and their children's schools wouldn't have accepted them over it had they applied after getting the dog.
I do see birds, hamsters, Guinea pigs not infrequently. Personally, I have two cats but wouldn't get a dog. Cats are self cleaning, more so even than hamsters. I have enough to clean. And even then, I'm not really public about it. But they're mine for their lifespans, which is not short.

As far as animals teaching children their middos, we talk a lot about the cats' tznius and cleanliness, and respect for their own personal space.

amother

↑ Rose ↓

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:03 am

amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:

I wouldn't get a dog because I've enough kids to feed, toilet train, clean up after and take for walkies. Why add an animal??

If your hands are full, then of course you should not add an animal. People who have their hands full are the people who end up returning dogs because they can't take care of them.

BTW, if you adopt an adult dog, even a young adult, you likely will not need to toilet train them.

And people get animals because they believe they add to their quality of life. My kids enjoy playing and cuddling with the dog. We share the walking responsibilities, and truthfully it's good for all of us (especially me) to get some daily exercise and air.
I also sleep a lot more peacefully knowing the dog is sleeping in the house (not in our bedrooms, but in the hallway or by the front door). It's a huge added security.

We originally got the dog for one child who was going through a tough time socially, and the dog was a godsend. Notice in Hebrew, dog is כלב - כולו לב. All heart.

Personally, I wouldn't adopt birds or bunnies. It pains me to see animals stuck in cages all day, especially birds who are meant to soar. It even pains me to see goldfish stuck in aquariums. Dogs, though, seem very happy to live in your home as long as you let them out a lot, and give them free run once in a while.

amother

↑ Rose ↓

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:12 am

[quote="SacN"]

Quote:

Personally, I have two cats but wouldn't get a dog. Cats are self cleaning, more so even than hamsters. I have enough to clean. .

I have experience with cats, and find dogs easier, ironically. It's true you don't have to walk the cat (and mine had free access to the garden), but you can't train them either. It drives me nuts to have a cat on the kitchen counter or the dining room table. However self-cleaning a cat is, she will never be clean enough to sit on my counter!
Plus you can never leave any food out.
My dog doesn't touch a thing that's on the table, doesn't climb on couches or beds.

amother

Amber

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:16 am

amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:

I wouldn't get a dog because I've enough kids to feed, toilet train, clean up after and take for walkies. Why add an animal??

I felt this way for years. Now my youngest is 10 and I can understand it. In my neighborhood, most frum families with a dog dont have any kids under 5.

I think the idea of a pet is relatively new. The halachot were addressing those who had dogs for a purpose. Now, a dog is a family member. I have seen even Rabbonim get dogs, usually to help a child go through something. My Rov says an animal is not a pet and is muktza however many many families walk their dogs and touch them on shabbos. They have asked other rabbis who see dogs in the modern view as part of the family. Keeping a dog that sleeps outside or goes outside when you have guests is a different story.

We have the Pets in Halacha book that was helpful and insightful. The only thing that surprised me is that halachically, a woman living alone is not permitted to own a dog. We are an animal family, with many animals that are all outdoors so we can have guests without making them uncomfortable.

As time goes on, I think it would be a good idea for 2 of my older kids to have a dog, but its so much work for me if they opt out of responsibilities (which I see from some neighbor) and the muktza thing is an issue for us. Also, no vacations without major planning for the pet.

amother

↑ Rose ↓

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:19 am

amother [ Amber ] wrote:

I felt this way for years. Now my youngest is 10 and I can understand it. In my neighborhood, most frum families without do nt have any kids under 5.

I also agree. In a family with babies and toddlers, you really need to be a dedicated dog lover in order to find the time to take care of a dog.

Usually families with older kids adopt.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:20 am

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

Me and my husband love dogs/animals and a bit obssesed lol. I think other people have strong opinions of animals or not and as long as when they come over, If they are scared or whatever you make arrangements ( dog stay in another room etc) to consider their needs , then that's it. It sounds very judgmental . I know there are some halachot about shabbat or something but as long as it's considered than if these "friends" are making you feel bad and your happy , then they don't sound like such supportive friends... It's ok to express an opionion... But not telling your what to do and how to live your life...

Thanks. We are getting it because we feel it will benefit the children. And it’s not our friends that are critical. It’s a new Rabbi who moved onto our block who is literally harassing us to cancel the dog. (We ordered him from a breeder) it’s been a really difficult situation because him and his wife are literally bullying us and making us feel like we are not frum. Our own rav agrees it is the right thing for our family and does not have a problem with it. But this neighbor rabbi is really driving us crazy.

amother

↑ Rose ↓

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:23 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Wow. I can't identify with this kind of social or religious coercion.

BTW - too late here, since you have already bought a dog - I highly recommend adopting from a reputable dog shelter, rather than buying. It's a win-win.

↑ Rappel

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 8:25 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Ah, well. Crazy neighbors are a problem everywhere, and have nothing to do with religion. If they won't lay off, then you can get a police protection order against them for threatening your dog, but I think that's a bit extreme.