Science vs Torah. And the winner is....

↑ gryp ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 6:52 am

We know that when a little voice comes into our head and tells us that "we don't believe," this is the voice of Amalek.
In Yiddishkeit, we can not serve Hashem with coldness. We serve Hashem with warmth and excitement.
When Amalek came to Bnei Yisroel in the desert, the pasuk says, "Asher Karcha Baderech," "Karcha" from the word "Kar" "cold." In those times all of the non-Jewish nations were terrified of the Jews coming to inherit their land, after hearing all the miraculous wonders Hashem had done for them. Amalek was the first one who came to attack the Yidden, trying to "cool off" the fear the other nations had of them.

This is one of the things that Chassidus effected at it's start 3-400 years ago. It brought joy and excitement into the people and into their service of Hashem.

Tammy, you have a very logical mind. I think you would really enjoy and appreciate learning Chassidus.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 6:56 am

[quote="amother"]

amother wrote:

But if there were no other options, and the Rebbe had any power to see what ordinary people could not, he certainly would have told them to cherish the time they had left, as there was no cure. Instead, he gave them false hope, even though he did so out of the kindness heart because he was a caring man, but this just shows he was infallible like the rest of us.

He wanted to help this family by offering hope and a brocha, but that, like all of us mortals, it wasn't in his power to help.

If your point was that he didn't have the power to change G-d's will, of course we'll agree with that -- no human being does.

Another amother response
You say false hope. A Rebbe understands, that means He knew that they needed to try this even if the Rebbe understood it wasn't going to work. If you speak to peaple who deal with family who are dealing with illness like chai lifeline, than you will hear how different peaple deal with sittuations in different ways. Some don't want to hear that you should cherish the time you have left. Hopefully you don't and will not understand this. Unfortunatly I saw this too closly.

To those of you who are upset with posters who don't seem to know how to respect a Rebbe. Not all have been raised or understand emunas chachomim and I don't think you can do much about it. Having lived in a mixed community and seen all kinds of attitudes. But I am sure you will keep trying anyway, oh well, thats life. Try to understand that there are those who just will not get it. Hope I am not insulting any of you.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 7:02 am

GR,

Tankyou.

↑ gryp ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 7:09 am

You're Velcome. Wink

Quote:

To those of you who are upset with posters who don't seem to know how to respect a Rebbe. Not all have been raised or understand emunas chachomim and I don't think you can do much about it. Having lived in a mixed community and seen all kinds of attitudes. But I am sure you will keep trying anyway, oh well, thats life. Try to understand that there are those who just will not get it. Hope I am not insulting any of you.

and well-said.
Except I would differentiate between the hashkafas in Emunas Chachomim. As we saw in the "Does a Tzaddik make mistakes?" threads, Chasidim differ than others in their views.

Last edited by gryp on Thu, Nov 08 2007, 7:53 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ HindaRochel ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 7:29 am

GR wrote:

We know that when a little voice comes into our head and tells us that "we don't believe," this is the voice of Amalek. .

Not believing that the Rebbe was perfect and knew everything or had Ruach HaKodesh is not the same as not believing in Torah M'Sinai, or Hashem.

I don't believe the Rebbe was anyone of those things, nor do I necessarily think the Rebbe was correct about the timing of the coming of Moshiach... though I fervently hope and pray, that the Moshiach will come in this generation. I fervently hope and pray that the Moshiach will come before I go to bed tonight! But the Rebbe was not a prophet, as he was neither a fool nor a child. I respect his teachings greatly. He did much for the world.

Though, if I were to be a Chassid I'd probably be Breslov.
.

↑ gryp ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 7:51 am

Quote:

Not believing that the Rebbe was perfect and knew everything or had Ruach HaKodesh is not the same as not believing in Torah M'Sinai, or Hashem.

That's not what I meant to say at all. Did I imply that?
My point was directed at a person who is unwilling to believe from the very start no matter how many times it can be proved to her.

I'm not going to sit here and do the "yes he was, no he wasn't" thing. I don't expect anyone who wasn't brought up (or came on their own later) in close proximity to the Rebbe to have the same typical hashkafa and respect that we know goes along with what a Rebbe is.
You have the freedom to doubt that the Rebbe was a Navi, and I have the freedom to proclaim that he was/is a Navi without a doubt. And not just a Navi, but much much more.

Outsiders know the Rebbe for what the Rebbe did to the world- the tens of thousands of Shluchim he sent out. Perhaps they know a miracle story or two that happened to someone they know.
Insiders who live/d "with" the Rebbe every day and have a close living relationship know that at the same time the Rebbe was/is far above the rest of us with connections to Above and the ability to help any Jew in need.

↑ HindaRochel

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 8:09 am

Okay, GR, I misunderstood.

However I thought the talmud proclaimed that there were no more prophets accecpt for children and fools. The talmud, to the best of my knowledge, states that. So how could he be a Navi?

A very intelligent man, a very wonderful man...I don't deny any of those things. That he did a great deal for the Jewish people and had influence over others. But this is something I have great deal of trouble understanding...why did he have to be a Navi to be great?

↑ gryp ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 8:31 am

Quote:

However I thought the talmud proclaimed that there were no more prophets accecpt for children and fools. The talmud, to the best of my knowledge, states that. So how could he be a Navi?

Yes, the Talmud writes that... until Moshiach comes, is the other half of the quote. I don't know it off-hand but I've learned it. Perhaps someone else here knows it.

Quote:

But this is something I have great deal of trouble understanding...why did he have to be a Navi to be great?

Not that the Rebbe had to be a Navi to be great, but that the Rebbe said things that astounded his audience, and they were later recognized as prophecy.
There were lots of great Tzaddikim in history who were not known to be Nevi'im.

↑ hadasa ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 8:34 am

Boy, has this thread gone off track since I was here last.

↑ gryp ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 8:40 am

HindaRochel, just to give you an example of what I'm talking about when I say "prophecy" (and I completely forgot that I had copied this from Shmais when they had this up a few years ago and it was sitting on my computer the entire time!), it's a long article though:

Quote:

Saddam, Bush and the Rebbe
The Kabbalah of Basra
By Yosef Y. Jacobson

"The day of your liberation is near."
-- President Bush, in an address to the nation, March 17, 2003.

The crisis begins
Twelve years ago, about a month after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, as the U.S. began building a coalition of nations against Saddam Hussein, one of the foremost religious voices of our generation began quoting an ancient passage of the Midrash, foretelling the events of the day.

It was Sabbath afternoon, Aug. 18, 1990, when the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, addressed thousands of disciples at his headquarters
in Brooklyn (1). The mood in the Jewish world was stern, as Saddam pledged war against Israel if he were attacked. The Rebbe quoted words of the Sages dating back some 1,500 years.

"The leader of Persia," states the Midrash, "will attack an Arab nation and the Arab king will go to Aram for advice. The leader of Persia will bring destruction to the entire world, and all of the nations will be struck by panic and fear ... Israel will also be overtaken by panic and fear, and they will cry, 'Where shall we go? Where shall we go'?

"Moshiach will then tell them: 'My children, fear not. Everything I have done, I have done for you. Why are you afraid? Do not fear! The time of your liberation has arrived (2).'"
Who is Persia? Who is Aram?
A few weeks later, during the holiday of Sukkos (3) in October 1990, the Rebbe went on to explain that the Midrashic words "the leader of Persia" may be understood as "the leader of Iraq," since ancient Persia included the territory of present-day Iraq. "Aram," which in Hebrew means "exalted," or "powerful," refers to the world's superpower. Thus, "the Arab king going to Aram for advice" may represent an Arab country, Kuwait, coming to the U.S. for help (4).

"Despite the ominous situation," the Rebbe declared, "there was no reason to become confounded or fearful." On the contrary, this confrontation was heralding the time of our redemption, that moment in history when the authentic spiritual and moral core of humanity will emerge in its full splendor and heaven will become one with earth.

During the next months, the Lubavitcher Rebbe reiterated these Midrashic words numerous times, as he called on the Jewish people and the world to replace fear with courage and confusion with determination. We ought to prepare ourselves and the world at large, the Rebbe said, for the great spiritual revolution that will engulf the globe, by increasing in the study of Torah, the observance of mitzvos, and acts of goodness and kindness. Each and every one of us, the Rebbe suggested, should be teaching himself and the surrounding world about a higher way of living -- a life of ethics, honesty, goodness and peace. A life of Moshiach.
The war begins
The war began on Wednesday, Jan. 16, 1991. A tremendous part of the fighting was concentrated in Basra, that ancient port city off the Persian Gulf in
southern Iraq, home to the Republican Guard and, according to many, the location of the dictator himself.

Three days later, on Sabbath, Jan. 19 (4 Shevat 5750), the Lubavitcher Rebbe devoted a large part of his public address to the war against Saddam Hussein. The Rebbe viewed Saddam - a person who chopped off the ears and noses of dissidents, tortured children in front of their parents, gassed thousands to death and craved the death of Israel - as a truly evil person.

The Rebbe saw him as a scion of the great anti-Semites of old, professing the legendary brutality and Jew-hatred of Nebuchadnezzar (ancient king of Iraq and Babylonia, arch-hero of Saddam), Amalek, Haman and Pharaoh.

The Rebbe knew very well of the ulterior motives accompanying so many American foreign-policy decisions. Yet he felt America and its values of freedom and individual liberty were a blessing for mankind, and that its war against a monstrous tyrant was a moral act, one that would save and liberate countless innocent lives.

I recall vividly how during his address on that Sabbath, the Rebbe encouraged the American armed forces to finish the job they had successfully begun. "Seventy or 80 percent of the work has been accomplished already," the Rebbe stated. "The job should be concluded 100 percent."
Moses' fear
In a fascinating discussion about fear and courage, the Rebbe discussed the opening verse of that week's Torah portion (the portion of Bo), where "G-d said to Moses: 'Come to Pharaoh (5).'"

The Zohar, one of the foundational texts of Kabbalah, writes on this passage (6):

"Now it is time to reveal secrets that are bound above and below. Why does it say, 'Come to Pharaoh'? It should have said, 'Go to Pharaoh!' But G-d brought Moses into a chamber within a chamber, to the supernal and mighty serpent from which many levels of evil evolve... Moses feared the great serpent. Moses was ready to confront the manifestations of this serpent, but not to its core. Moses was afraid to come close to its essence, because he saw that it was grounded in supernal roots."

In other words, Moses was ready to confront Pharaoh in his many forms and manifestations, but when the moment came and Moses was called to face that ruler's core-evil in his innermost chamber, even the great Moses was overtaken by fear. Thus, G-d needed to reassure Moses and say to him, "Come to Pharaoh." You are not going alone, I am coming with you.
G-d in Basra
As the address continued, the Rebbe went on to discuss the tremendous significance of the fact that the center of the fighting took place in southern Iraq, in the city of Basra. He quoted a verse form the Prophet Isaiah, foretelling the events of the ultimate redemption (7):

"Who is this coming from Edom, with sullied garments from Basra?" is the question an anonymous onlooker asks G-d when he sees G-d returning as a warrior from the
battlefield of Basra.

"I soiled my garments [in My war against evil in Basra]," G-d responds, "for a day of vengeance is in My heart and the year of my redemption has come."

According to many Talmudic sources, the city discussed by Isaiah in this prophecy is located in Babylonia, or present-day Iraq (8). This means G-d was saying that He Himself will be confronting the evil in Basra, just as G-d promised Moses that He Himself would join Him in confronting the evil of Pharaoh (9).

The Rebbe, apparently comparing Saddam to Pharaoh, was speaking of the courage required to confront the tyrant of Iraq face-to-face and subdue him.

The Rebbe concluded by assuring the Jews living in Israel that they would be
safe and secure. "There will be no war in Israel," the Rebbe stated. "Israel is the safest place in the world."

Indeed, despite Iraq launching 39 Scud missiles at Israel, not one death could be contributed directly to those attacks.
A strange instruction
During that time, I had the privilege of working as one of the oral scribes of the Rebbe, reviewing and transcribing his public talks for publication. That night, I received a telephone call from one of the Rebbe's secretaries, Rabbi Laibel Groner, who instructed me, in the name of the Rebbe, not to publish the segment of the talk that dealt with the U.S. war against Iraq.

The Rebbe had told his secretary at the time, that "these words will be applicable at a future time (10)."

As we all remember, the first Persian Gulf war ended only a few weeks after it began. On Thursday, Feb. 28, 1991, Saddam withdrew completely from Kuwait and a cease-fire was declared. The end of the war coincided with Purim, the day in which we celebrate the victory of the Jewish people against another tyrant and mass killer by the name of Haman who lived in that region some 2,400 years ago.

Two days later, on Sabbath, the 16th day of Adar 5751 (March 2, 1991) the Rebbe blessed the American government and its armed forces. He spoke of the U.S. as "a nation of generosity," allowing and encouraging Jews to live Jewishly in full freedom and prosperity. The Rebbe expressed a heartfelt prayer "that the American troops succeed in their mission in Basra (11)."

This last statement at the time was extremely perplexing. Did the Rebbe not know that the war had ended? Was the Rebbe unaware of the fact that the troops had withdrawn from Basra and from the rest of Iraq? After all, the Rebbe himself had predicted that the war would be over by Purim! Why, two days later, was the Rebbe praying for the success of an American campaign in Basra?
12 years later...
The answer to this question I received this week.

Twelve years later to the day the Rebbe delivered that prayer on the 16th of Adar 5763, the U.S. and its allies declared war against Saddam Hussein's Iraq. By the end of the day, our troops were at the outskirts of Basra.

Forty-eight hours earlier, on the eve of Purim, the same night in which the
first Persian Gulf war ended, President Bush declared:

"Many Iraqis can hear me tonight in a translated radio broadcast, and I have
a message for them: If we must begin a military campaign, it will be directed against the lawless men who rule your country and not against you. As our coalition takes away their power, we will deliver the food and medicine you need. We will tear down the apparatus of terror and we will help you to build a new Iraq that is prosperous and free. In free Iraq there will be no more wars of aggression against your neighbors, no more poison factories, no more executions of dissidents, no more torture chambers and
rape rooms.

"The tyrant will soon be gone. The day of your liberation is near."

The day of our liberation, too, is near.
~~~~~~~~End~~~~~~~~
Footnotes:
1) The address is published in Sefer Hasichos 5750 vol. 2 pp. 631-641.
2) Yalkut Shemoni Isaiah, remez 499 (Yalkut Shimoni is a 14th century anthology of Midrashic litrature). The same Midrash is found also in an older Midrashic text, Pesikta Rabsi section 36.
3) Talk, second night of Sukkos, 5751 (Oct. 4, 1990.)
4) In fact, in Pesikta referenced in footnote #2, the word Edom is used instead of Aram (this change is mentioned in Sefer Hasichos 5750 vol. 2 p. 692). Edom represents the West, an heir to the Roman Empire, founded by the descendants of Esau who lived in the ancient country of Edom, or Idumaea, southeast of Israel.
5) Exodus 10:1.
6) Zohar, part II, 34a.
7) Isaiah 63:1. Cf. Ibid. 34: 6.
8 ) See Talmud shabbas 29b; Avodah Zarah 58b; Yerushlami: Kilayim 7:1; 3:1; Shvieis 6:2; Midrash Eicah Rabah section 3; Shir Hashirim Rabah section 7; Midrash Shmuel chapter 25. It is clear from many of the above sources that many of the Talmudic sages resided in this Babylonian city and that Jewish
life in Basra was vibrant. Cf. Otzar Yisroel (Eisenstein) under the entry of Botzrah.
9) Cf. Zohar Veira p. 32a concerning a major war that will take place at the end of days with the children of Ishmael, in which Basra is also mentioned (Quoted in the edited version of the Rebbe's talk that Sabbath, Sefer Hasichos 5751 p. 280).
10) The Rebbe used the famous biblical expression, "Od Chazon Lemoed."
11) The Rebbe stated that they should not confuse Botzrah (Basra) with another city that has a similar name, Betzer. This enigmatic comment was apparently referring to a fascinating Talmudic teaching in which the spiritual angel of Edom will, at the end of days, run to Bozrah thinking that it is a city of refuge. In truth, he will mistake Bozrah with Betzer - Makos 12a, quoted in Rashi to Isaiah 63:1. Cf. Gitin 58b for an interesting exchange between Rabbi Yochanan and Reish Lakish on the location of Bozrah.

My thanks to Shmuel Levin, a writer and editor in Pittsburgh, for his editorial assistance in both essays.

↑ Sue DaNym

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 9:14 am

ijust saw this on a blog... hopefully this will end this silly debate once and for all...

rabbi nachum eisenstein, the head of the vaad of geirus in eretz yisroel was at the eternal jewish family conference in washington this week. as the blogger put it:

Quote:

In any event, my friend tells me that R. N. Eisenstein declared, FROM THE PODIUM IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE CONFERENCE, in the name of R. Eliyashiv, that anyone who believes the world is older than 5000+ years is a kofer b'ikar, and is therefore unfit to serve as a dayan on a beis din, and that consequently any rabbi that holds such a view cannot perform conversions, not to mention that all of his conversions would be posul.

Similar such pronouncements were made about anyone who maintains that Chazal made any error in science or metzeius.

hopefuly his will put an end to this silly discussion. r eliyashiv is the gadol hador among misnagdim and he says that anyone who thinks the world is more than 5768 yers old is a kofer bikar! and so too anyone who thinks that chazal make mistakes in science. there it is tammy. finished. take yur pick - do you believe in the torah or are you a kofer biker?

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 12:20 pm

Amother Amother, what does Moishe kibul etc etc mean to you? Was Moishe Rabbainu at creation? Come on without the mesorah- our Rabbanim what is there to be beleived

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 12:36 pm

I'm the amother who's aunt died...
in response to the amother who spoke of false hope, you are wrong!

Quote:

THANKYOU!

if my grandparents are anything like my parent then they would have needed that ..(what you call) "false" hope!
some people need to try anything regardless of how futile it is, and the Rebbe had the insight to see that.

Further more, as GR was getting at, maybe there was a hope, but something didn't happen down here to be the keli that was needed.
Maybe the Rebbe did his part but something else got in the way.
Again my point is that just because a tzaddik's brocha wasn't mekuyam doesn't mean he was wrong.
and just because telling someone to try a new treatment didn't work doesn't mean he was wrong either.
I think for my grandparents, they needed that last bit of hope to hold on to, even though it didn't change the outcome..

Quote:

Once again, a story where somebody neglects to give out all the facts in the telling (there were no more treatment options, she was doomed to die no matter what) and expects everyone to understand. You didn't say that there were no other options.

when I told my story, I didn't forsee that someone was going to come and try and twist it around, therefore, I didn't see the necessity in going into every single detail.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 12:47 pm

I had an uncle that would refuse to listen to that false hope theory.

he fought untill the moment he died, he didn't once give up.
when doctors were shaking their heads sadly he still begged them to help him live

↑ gryp ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 4:34 pm

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 4:44 pm

To the amother with the aunt who died, I think that if you're going to use a story to illustrate how incredible the Rebbe was, you need to use a story where he did something incredible. Saying he told them to seek treatment and then the aunt died because G-d is in charge doesn't really tell me anything about the Rebbe.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 4:50 pm

Quote:

then you haven't been following the thread and don't know in relation to what I posted it.

the story wasn't to tell you anything incredible about the Rebbe, it was in answer to a question someone asked.
I'm not going to rehash what I explained again and again, its your choice if you want to trace back to where the story came in.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 6:39 pm

When we were having a hard time with having children (it wasn't happening) one day (it was actually gimmel Tammuz) DH opened up a book of letters from the Rebbe and the Rebbe was talking all about how important a pidyon haben was.

This gave us a lot of chizuk and helped us as we traversed the IF world.

About a year and one IVF cycle later I gave birth to a baby

GIRL!

Do I believe the Rebbe was "wrong"? No. We got our message of hope and we just love our little girl.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 6:55 pm

Sorry, but it seems like people see what they want to see. Had you been infertile with no chance of having kids (and there are plenty of people like that) would you have also seen a deep meaning in the Rebbe's messages about that? It sounds like people look for answers and see them, and accompanying meaning, where none may have existed, and attribute anything, from birth to death and everything in between, to what he said or did.

I understand that this notion probably brings great comfort to people, but it wouldn't work for me. I'm comfortable thinking a man can be really great and wise and learned, but there it stops for me.

I guess there's no point in arguing this. Obviously, you take great comfort from this and I think that's great. I guess the part that bothers me is that everyone seems to be saying, "Don't you see???!!!" to those who don't see things the same way.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 7:10 pm

Quote:

I guess the part that bothers me is that everyone seems to be saying, "Don't you see???!!!" to those who don't see things the same way.

you don't get it.
the point is that just because the Rebbe gives a brocha and it doesn't come out in a obvious manner to be fullfilled, doesn't mean the Rebbe was wrong.

IF the Rebbe had specifically said "you will have a child within the year" and the person didn't have a child, that would be a different story.

do you know anyone that ever happened to?