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amother
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 Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:01 am
| amother Lotus wrote: | I think many of you are taking this way out of context.
OP is simply suggesting that people who no longer need their huge houses downsize so that people who do need the space have the possibility of buying in.
She didn't say they should lose money on it.
She didn't say they should live in their basement - that was someone else's suggestion.
She has a point.
Is there a way to help or encourage people who don't need the space and may even be finding the upkeep difficult to move into smaller accommodation so that there are more big houses on the market?
What would that involve? |
Would the older generation sell their home at going market price?
That’s not what I understood from this post
Why should I lose out if I choose to down grade.
If I bought my home at $150,000.00 45 yrs ago and today that home goes for $3million
How does me selling my home to my kids helping.
Or do you expect me to sell my home to the value I bought it .
If the younger generation can afford the $3million I’m sure there are other houses on the market to buy without uprooting the older generation
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amother
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:05 am
| amother RosePink wrote: | Somebody is going to buy the 5000 square foot home at fair market value. Whether one person stays in the house - buys the house or a rich family buys the house, it will still be too expensive for a person of modest means to buy.
It doesn't make prices decrease in a very desirable area.
The premise seems to be if older people moved out of large homes, that would make them available to younger people. But that doesn't solve the issue of the cost as there are always homes available for fair market value. I can buy a house theoretically on the Upper East Side or a 10 room coop on Park Avenue tomorrow - provided I can afford it. I can buy a house for $3,000,000 in the Pico Beverly Wood section of Los Angeles or Hancock Park.
The only relevant type of housing are Mitchell Lama or equivalent housing in New York City like the Amalgamated Apartments on 23rd Street or the Cadman Plaza coop in Brooklyn Heights. These condos were built for middle class families and have a waiting list so you must "sell" to the next person on the waiting list rather than the highest bidder. These were the conditions when you were lucky enough to be able to purchase one and the size of your family determined how many bedrooms you could "buy". So there is a situation in which children have moved out and the parents still have a larger apartment and so they should move into a one bedroom when available in the same building. But that is a very very unique type of housing.
What OP and others seems to *want* is for older people to give away their homes so that they are "affordable" to people who can't afford fair market value of a home or apartment in a desirable area.
Most people I know don't live in mansions - they live in relatively modest three or four bedroom homes. They can't be carved up into multiple apartments as it would probably violate zoning laws. |
Maybe zoning laws need to be loosened then...https://ww3.rics.org/uk/en/modus/built-environment/homes-and-communities/president-column-tina-paillet-june-2024.html#:~:text=The%20crisis%20has%20many%20causes,and%20homelessness%20on%20every%20continent.
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amother
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:06 am
| amother Wheat wrote: | Is there a shortage of land in Lakewood?
I can't imagine why people would want an 8000 sq foot house but I am not rich. Me, I just want a house with big enough kitchen, laundry room and bedrooms.
But yes, I think there should be a limit on how much property people can buy. Second homes also play havoc in many housing markets, as does airbnb, people buying houses and leaving them empty and so on.
Cities and governments need to get creative on how to solve this issue which is affecting many people in a negative way. |
Go live in a communist country. They believe on limiting how much property people should buy.
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amother
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:09 am
| amother Papaya wrote: | Would the older generation sell their home at going market price?
That’s not what I understood from this post
Why should I lose out if I choose to down grade.
If I bought my home at $150,000.00 45 yrs ago and today that home goes for $3million
How does me selling my home to my kids helping.
Or do you expect me to sell my home to the value I bought it .
If the younger generation can afford the $3million I’m sure there are other houses on the market to buy without uprooting the older generation |
No, very often there are almost no houses available on the market in a frum area. those that are available go to cash buyers and couples with a mortgage have no chance.
I have a relative who only managed to buy a house (at fair market value) because the sellers liked them and wanted to give them a chance.
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amother
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:12 am
| amother Watermelon wrote: | | Go live in a communist country. They believe on limiting how much property people should buy. |
No they don't.
From what I understand in communist Russia the elite had plentiful housing including vacation homes, regular people lived in small apartments. (although at least everyone had somewhere to live)
There are other solutions apart from that.
making it harder or more expensive for people to buy second homes or turn long term rentals into airbnb is not the same as communism, lol.
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amother
Taupe
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:13 am
| Ruchel wrote: | | Everyone isn't leaving France. Schools keep opening in case this interests someone. But don't come expecting English. That said some schools are used to foreign kids, Israeli who come back or sabras coming for many reasons. In Strasbourg they have many German kids in at least one of the schools. |
Didn’t the French chief rabbi recommend that all Jews should leave France?
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amother
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:14 am
| amother Wheat wrote: | Is there a shortage of land in Lakewood?
I can't imagine why people would want an 8000 sq foot house but I am not rich. Me, I just want a house with big enough kitchen, laundry room and bedrooms.
But yes, I think there should be a limit on how much property people can buy. Second homes also play havoc in many housing markets, as does airbnb, people buying houses and leaving them empty and so on.
Cities and governments need to get creative on how to solve this issue which is affecting many people in a negative way. |
I agree with one point, people buying houses and then leaving them empty. Maybe there should be regulations about that. But limit how much properties a person can own and ho big they should be? That's not how life works. It's not all fair and square.
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amother
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:22 am
| amother Wheat wrote: | No they don't.
From what I understand in communist Russia the elite had plentiful housing including vacation homes, regular people lived in small apartments. (although at least everyone had somewhere to live)
There are other solutions apart from that.
making it harder or more expensive for people to buy second homes or turn long term rentals into airbnb is not the same as communism, lol. |
Yes it's communist mentality that everything should be equal and you shouldn't have 2 houses before I have one. There is no reason people shouldn't be able to buy second homes or turn them into long term rentals if they want to.
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amother
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:23 am
| amother Wheat wrote: | Is there a shortage of land in Lakewood?
I can't imagine why people would want an 8000 sq foot house but I am not rich. Me, I just want a house with big enough kitchen, laundry room and bedrooms.
But yes, I think there should be a limit on how much property people can buy. Second homes also play havoc in many housing markets, as does airbnb, people buying houses and leaving them empty and so on.
Cities and governments need to get creative on how to solve this issue which is affecting many people in a negative way. |
This sounds socialist/communist to me.
My parents born and grew up in Cuba
One of the first things that the government did was split up larger homes and larger land to give portions to other families.
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amother
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:24 am
| amother Wheat wrote: | No, very often there are almost no houses available on the market in a frum area. those that are available go to cash buyers and couples with a mortgage have no chance.
I have a relative who only managed to buy a house (at fair market value) because the sellers liked them and wanted to give them a chance. |
So people should band together and form new communities. Same as the older generation did. They built these communities up and now people are resentful of them for living there in a place you decided is too big for them?
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amother
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:30 am
| amother Vermilion wrote: | So let me explain it to you point by point.
We need jewish owned buildings, because jewish families with more than 2-3 children will unlikely get apartments and in any case affordable apartments are so scarce that whenever there is an empty one, the lines of interested tenants are so long, they sometimes go down a whole street, so the chance of getting an apartment are…almost zero.
And also, what use is it to me if there is another two families but we are all spread out across different neighborhoods and streets? If we already make the move and pick ourselves up we would at least have to live on the same street. There most likes are no couple of empty apartments in the same street at the same time. Each building is owned by a different person. And the apartments owned by non Jews are most of the time tiny and not equipped for a big jewish family. Do you get now why the building should be owned by a frum Jew?
Lucerne is not as expensive as Zurich, but still not cheap enough for it to make sense to move there. And the commute to schools in Zurich are easily 1-1/2 hours one way.
You have to calculate the costs of travel (two cars per family, train passes) it‘ll easily come to 1000.- so the rent has to be max 2000.- a month in order for it to make sense financially.
The language spoken in Strasbourg is french.Neither my kids nor I and my husband speak a word of it. Would you move to a foreign country with a completely foreign language? Probably only as a refugee ch“v. |
I hear what you are saying about Lucerne, but it doesn't answer why you can't moved to a commutable cheaper outside of Zurich.
The bolded is the real problem. People want everything - to stay close to home, have a normal place to live and to be surrounded by frum people , at a affordable price.
I am sure that just like any jewish community in the world - when the frum community in Zurich started growing I am sure they lived all spread out, but within walking distance of a shul. As the community grew and properties became available, it became more and more jewish.
That is how people who aren't wealthy are usually able to afford homes, they move somewhere remote, build it up and eventually it grows into a thriving community. This is true of every single growing community in the word I know off - England ( the only european country where the community is actually expanding) Mexico city, tristate area ( people commute an 1 1/2 plus daily from greater lakewood to manhattan for work) Israel, Cleveland, South Africa.
If there is no where affordable driving distance to a school, they get a big enough group together an start a new school - this is where you start a fundraising campaign to make it possible.
I don't know enough about the zurich housing market - but I know enough about frum communities to know that this is how frum real estate works everywhere.
Young people move far enough out that they can afford to live, but close enough that they can still be part of the family. In the tristate area there are people moving into really dangerous places ( Linden, Jersey City) full of crime, just so they can afford to buy homes close to Brooklyn.
If the issue is owners discriminating against jewish tenants because they have to many kids - that would be a uniquely swiss issue - but that would need askanus to try to get laws passed that make it illegal.
Honestly, it sounds like the issue is that there is no one willing to jump in and do the machering and askanus that the community needs.
Lets say you really need a frum building - figure out how much is needed, and make a charidy campaign to buy it, raise money in the community, and have the rents go to buying more buildings. Or raise money to start a school in a cheaper place. Find a Rav who will move out
Get people together to work on solutions that actually support growth.
The Op's solution will help the people in current crisis - but what happens to the next generation?
Eventually the big homes will be all split up and full - and then what happens?
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Ruchel
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:33 am
| amother Taupe wrote: | | Didn’t the French chief rabbi recommend that all Jews should leave France? | no. I didn't even know his name. Let him go where he wants. And let people stay or come as they do. But as you're anonymous I'm not justifying my self. Weird messages will be reported. Advice can be sought out somewhere else. It's funny that irl non Jews show less aggression. If any thing the chief rabbi of Belgium doesn't wear a kippa out for years buuuut.
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amother
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:44 am
| amother Papaya wrote: | Would the older generation sell their home at going market price?
That’s not what I understood from this post
Why should I lose out if I choose to down grade.
If I bought my home at $150,000.00 45 yrs ago and today that home goes for $3million
How does me selling my home to my kids helping.
Or do you expect me to sell my home to the value I bought it .
If the younger generation can afford the $3million I’m sure there are other houses on the market to buy without uprooting the older generation |
Yes they would.
OP is in Europe where there are not other houses on the market near enough to the kehila. There just aren't.
I'll give you an irrelevant example on purpose. The moshav of Tifrach was built up by frum families around the yeshiva. It's mostly zoned as farming land so young couples wanting to settle near their parents are really stuck.
In some cities in Europe it is literally impossible, for any price, to find big houses. So yes, let them sell for market price and downsize and young people can buy in at market price. OP wasn't complaining about price, she was decrying big empty houses when young families can't find anything to buy or rent.
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Cheiny
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:48 am
| amother Wheat wrote: | No they don't.
From what I understand in communist Russia the elite had plentiful housing including vacation homes, regular people lived in small apartments. (although at least everyone had somewhere to live)
There are other solutions apart from that.
making it harder or more expensive for people to buy second homes or turn long term rentals into airbnb is not the same as communism, lol. |
I can’t believe people are even suggesting this…
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amother
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:57 am
| Cheiny wrote: | | I can’t believe people are even suggesting this… |
Make up your mind. Do you want Jewish families to be able to live in respectable way, or do you think it is more important that billionaires buy 20 homes and leave them empty?
No one is taking away peoples homes a la Cuba. But governments incentivise people all the time.
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Cheiny
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:05 pm
| amother Cherry wrote: | So is blaming the grandparents for making you live in 400 square feet.
You've closed yourself off to any other suggestions other then having the older generation give up their houses for you. There isn't much else to discuss then. |
Exactly. I find this is more about people thinking they’re entitled and have it coming to them, rather than taking responsibility and realizing it’s on them to work hard and save, like the older generations do, and actually EARN what they get, and have, including housing. But instead many (not all, but many, from what I see) want to continue living on a high standard, with their toddlers in designer, matching outfits, take frequent vacations and otherwise freely spend, and then complain they can’t save for a home. It’s all about priorities.
My grandparents came to this country not speaking a word of English, immediately took courses to learn the language, got jobs, and saved until they could buy a house. No one handed them anything. They deserve to continue enjoying their home without any of their children (who also worked, earned, and bought their own homes by themselves) or grandchildren even thinking they should be giving up their homes, space, comfort so the younger, entitled generation can take it.
I don’t think this mentality is okay.
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Cheiny
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:08 pm
| Raisin wrote: | Some of you have very warped views on selfishness. Just because I can afford a 5000 sq foot mansion doesn't mean I should buy it, especially when it means that 5 young families will be living in substandard accomodation because of me.
There are not infinite resources of anything in the world, we should all be mindful and not wasteful. |
This is a socialist view. People who can afford it should be able to buy whatever type of home they like and need, without having to buy something smaller just because some people are imagining that presumably the large home will be split up instead for 5 young families to have… that’s ridiculous.
There is plenty of housing for everyone, in many neighborhoods, if people are willing to lower their desires about what street and exactly what conditions that housing needs to meet. It works both ways. I think the ones who expect to get the handouts that they haven’t earned are the selfish ones.
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amother
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:09 pm
| amother Wheat wrote: | Make up your mind. Do you want Jewish families to be able to live in respectable way, or do you think it is more important that billionaires buy 20 homes and leave them empty?
No one is taking away peoples homes a la Cuba. But governments incentivise people all the time. |
What do you mean live in a respectful way? Did your grandparents grow up living in a huge home? Mine didn't. And I don't think it was disrespectful. They worked their way up. If you don't like your living situation figure something else out. Don't expect your grandparents to give you part of their home.
And serious, all the threads before yom tov about how people can't stand moving in to their in laws for a few days....u wanna share a house with them now for years on end??
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ShishKabob
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:14 pm
| amother Bluebell wrote: | | Why stop there? Why not force all wealthy folks who have 8000 sq ft houses on 3 acre lots in Lakewood/Jackson/Toms River to subdivide the interior of their houses and built additional units on their property where zoning allows. You could fit 10-15 young families instead of one family taking up all that space that they can’t even use. If we are going to do forced sharing don’t stop with the old folks…. | This
It's not ok to request these things from the elderly, if they offer it on their own then ok.
Hashem is more creative than us, all you have to do is ask Him to get you more spacious living accommodations. Bhatzlocha
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Cheiny
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Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:15 pm
| amother Lotus wrote: | I think many of you are taking this way out of context.
OP is simply suggesting that people who no longer need their huge houses downsize so that people who do need the space have the possibility of buying in.
She didn't say they should lose money on it.
She didn't say they should live in their basement - that was someone else's suggestion.
She has a point.
Is there a way to help or encourage people who don't need the space and may even be finding the upkeep difficult to move into smaller accommodation so that there are more big houses on the market?
What would that involve? |
Defining what ”don’t need” means is very subjective. YOUmay think or decide they don’t need it. But that’s irrelevant. THEY might believe they do need it, for various reasons, and ultimately it’s their home, their decision, their right. What if they feel comfortable there? Are you aware of how difficult change is, especially a move from their current living situation, for an older person? What if the strain of that change would cause them major emotional stress and upheaval?
Why are the “needs” of the younger generation more important than those of the older, and especially why do the younger think they know better, and that they have the right to decide for the rightful owners of the home what they should and shouldn’t do with it? This is presumptuous, chutzpahdig and selfish.
Last edited by Cheiny on Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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