Why does she feel a need to send her two year old to playgroup if she can't afford it? Is it a boy or a girl? Could make a difference. Is the child toilet trained? Is it for religious chinuch for a boy already? Is it because she can't survive unless they are out of the house? Does she have other children? Is this an SN child? Does she have any other SN children at home? Etc.
Where does she live, what group does she belong to, etc.
Really depends on a lot of things. Before answering I need more info.
I guess it is a language thing, MaBelleVie. What is an idea, is just an idea, what is halacha, is halacha, and I have rabbanim.
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This is what a Jewish man, a frum Jewish man sings to his wife every friday night.
Not all families sing eishes chail. Certainly not all families sing it TO the wife, as opposed to just another shabbes song.
And I'm not the type to ever say all my husband is is thanks to me. Like I'm not everything I am thanks to him. We certainly help and perfect each other but we had qualities before marriage, and owe even some of the post marriage qualities to ourselves, or rabbanim, or others.
I heard eishes chail as a child on shabbes for the first time.
I'm reading everything that FS says, I just don't agree with it.
Starting with, why does a man need a seat to begin with?
In general, my observations in life have shown me that those who demand honor are usually the ones who least deserve it.
And FS, the divorce statistics in the Jewish world (as well as those who have unhappy marriages) seem to say that there are plenty of men who would abuse that power. Its unnecessary power. And your argument is basically "no true scotsman."
As to playgroup for a 2 year old SAHM? Ridiculous unless there are extenuating circumstances.
I'm reading everything that FS says, I just don't agree with it.
Starting with, why does a man need a seat to begin with?
In general, my observations in life have shown me that those who demand honor are usually the ones who least deserve it.
And FS, the divorce statistics in the Jewish world (as well as those who have unhappy marriages) seem to say that there are plenty of men who would abuse that power. Its unnecessary power. And your argument is basically "no true scotsman."
As to playgroup for a 2 year old SAHM? Ridiculous unless there are extenuating circumstances.
Yes Ruchel but then it was your father singing it to your mother, not to you. I didn't say "hear it" I wrote "have it sung to YOU". Big difference.
Also it isn't the woman who is singing it and she doesn't say that all her husband is, is because of her.
Her husband sings it and HE says that everything he is, is due to her.
BIG difference.
No, no. I only saw it sung to a person, as opposed to singing it like lecha dodi or shalom alechem, as an adult actually. And I found it... a bit embarrassing to witness. I was not raised with it as a "love song". We all sung it together.
I would not enjoy to have it sung to me. It's not my story, it's not my life, it's not ME.
First of all don't people have set seats at your table? Who sits at the head of the table during a family meal or at an oval table, at what would be the head? One of the kids? Usually not. Even with round tables, and we had one when I was a child, that could become oval with additions, my father always had a set place as did my mother as did I....
Second divorce rates don't necessarily show that MEN are abusing any power, no divorce comes from the women being problematic? Or from falling out of love? Or both people changing? A man having an affair, which is one reason for divorce is certainly not ABUSING his power but rather breaking the halocho! So I wouldn't learn from divorce statistics straight off that men are abusing anything. You have to look first at the reasons for divorce, which could also be that people are no longer willing to work out issues but rather the younger generation used to instant gratification, faces and problem and decides that divorce is the only solution.
Who said that someone "demands honor"? I never did nor is that the Jewish way. Jewish tradition GRANTS men the honor of being the head of the household and GRANTS the woman the honor of being eishes chayil. You keep adding things that aren't being written and then knocking them down like a strawman. No one ever said that a man "demands honor". If he has to "demand" the situation is pretty bad. Just like if the woman has to "Demand" the situation is pretty bad.
As for zedoko for playgroups I read what that OP was writing, and she doesn't ask for zedoko but asks what is one without money to do. Big difference....like saying that she is "demanding zedoko" which she certainly isn't. She is asking for answers. she is pregnant with a two year old in a new city with no friends so she can't start a round robin playgroup and feels that her two year old MUST go to playgroup as she doesn't have what to do with him/her/. So far the answers across the board are that no healthy two year old MUST go to playgroup. And we aren't talking two months but a year.
So why MUST a healthy four year old go to camp?
Let's say this mother was in a fourth floor walkup in Brooklyn. No playground, Chassidish. Would you then think that she should receive zedoko for playgroup? Why not?
I'm reading everything that FS says, I just don't agree with it.
Starting with, why does a man need a seat to begin with?
In general, my observations in life have shown me that those who demand honor are usually the ones who least deserve it.
And FS, the divorce statistics in the Jewish world (as well as those who have unhappy marriages) seem to say that there are plenty of men who would abuse that power. Its unnecessary power. And your argument is basically "no true scotsman."
As to playgroup for a 2 year old SAHM? Ridiculous unless there are extenuating circumstances.
If you truly read everything she wrote, you would understand that NO ONE IS DEMANDING HONOR. Just as I don't demand that my husband respects me. I offer respect in the ways the Torah suggests, he offers respect in the ways the Torah suggests. We are both required to honor and love, but it is expressed differently because the Torah understands that men and women generally have different needs. If someone is unique and would like to be honored and loved differently from what it suggested by the Torah, I hope his or her spouse will want to do that.
I don't believe the divorce statistics and unhappy marriages in the frum world correlate in any way with power men believe is coming to them by halacha. Abuse in not sanctioned by halacha. There is no higher incidence of abuse of power in frum marriages than in general society, afaik, so I'm not sure what your argument is. Dysfunction in a marriage can not stem from Torah ideals.
In many families you sit where you want. Sometimes also no one sits at the head, just two on one side, two on the other. Everything goes, when it's not seder etc.
You can do without many things, including playground and camp. I totally understand not giving tzedaka for this. But the kid will suffer seeing barely another kid for 2 months, yes, if he is social. BTDT.
So then Ruchel you aren't talking about an age group that goes to sleep away camp and therefore you can find other children for a 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 year old to play with after camp is over. After all it's light until 8 PM and many children go to sleep later during the summer, even little ones. So it's not a problem to find a child to play with at 4, 5, and even 6 PM. It's not like there are no children around in the neighborhood, just turn the clock around in terms of play time.
And if there are no children or suitable children in the neighborhood at all, because no others live there, that's a totally different problem that has nothing to do with camp but living in such a place in general!
If you state that you have a specific seat that is YOURS (knowing that halacha stipulates a woman can't sit in a man's seat w/o his permission - which I don't think is pure halacha BTW) then you are DEMANDING a form of respect. Why can't that just be the seat you usually sit in, but everyone can sit there because its not your seat specifically? I don't get it.
I give my husband the respect he deserves and the way he wants and needs, not based on tradition. Times ARE different and that's why a woman doesn't need to wash her husband's feet anymore.
Honestly, I don't remember who or why the divorce thing was brought up. Someone said something about Jews having happier marriages maybe?? LOL. My point was that there are enough problems within frum marriages that FS account of "well you shouldn't marry a man who would lord his power over you" is really a true scotsman argument.
The ultimate point is though, if someone has the final say, it means you are at their mercy.
Just took my four youngest kids to Tzefat for two days (without DH, who was busy scouting yeshivas with our older sons). I'm two-minded about it. On the one hand, the bonding is amazing, and it's a special thing to do. On the other hand, having kids in such close proximity 24 hours a day can drive a mother crazy, especially when they argue with one another right over Mommy's head.
I couldn't do this all summer. Camp is a real sanity saver.
But it was great walking around this holy city and getting ice cream at a stand two days in a row. Yes, I'm still on my diet, but modified for summer vacation! Still losing weight, but more slowly.
One thing we accomplished on our mini-vacation was staying up till past midnight while I read them an entire novel-length book, The Dollhouse Murders. The kids I read to are almost 5, 8, almost 10, and 12. Ducking those arrows.
As to playgroup for a 2 year old SAHM? Ridiculous unless there are extenuating circumstances.
I disagree. My two year old was extremely sociable and going crazy at home. I sent him to playgroup, which I was only able to do because I WASN'T working. It was the best thing I could have done for him. Had I been working, the playgroup hours would not have been suitable for me and I would have sent my son to a babysitter, as I did with my older son. My next son was too young for playgroup at the beginning of the year and he suffered for it.
Sorry, not a huge leap at all. Most people, male or female, if given the last word at home would use it when they felt really strongly about something. It's not 'abuse of power', it's just natural. Let's say the dh feels really really strongly that the kids should be in school X, and that the family should live in city Y, and that they should have a television in the house, and the wife feels really really strongly just the opposite. So in most homes I know, the family would compromise on school Z, or the dh would get to make one decision, the wife another. But if the dh was annointed as the guy with the Final Say? He would likely decide his way on everything he felt very strongly about. OK, he'd let the wife choose the couch colour and the annual trip so she'd feel better. But he'd choose all the really important stuff, because he obviously and naturally thinks that that's best for the family - so why give in when the family's good is at stake? Just natural, any normal guy would act that way. And most women would feel resentful.
OK, I still have a few pages to go but had to comment apropos the HOH tangent:
When we've not been sure what to do, or I really thought Raoul was wrong, we went to our friendly LOR&R (Rav and Rebbetzin) and had a very DMC. It's not a matter of his laying down the law and my sulking, it's getting reality checks and being at peace with the final decision. Has this option come up anywhere on these last few pages?
saw you still don't get it.
you are NEVER at the mercy because if he is the kind of guy to use that kind of power in something that will hurt you then GET OUT!
So stop taking things to extremes.
In most homes that I know the husband sits at the head of the table, wherever the head is, wherever the table is. But wherever he sits down, if it is his makom kavua, it becomes "his seat" and then halochically - NOT because HE demands it but because the HALOCHO demands it, then it is "his seat" with all the halochos of that.
Look it's like a bedroom. You have two beds right? And a man is not allowed to sit on his wife's bed when she is nida etc. But what happens if they keep switching beds? Meaning during her tahor time? Doesn't make a difference, there is still a halochic "kvia" which bed is hers. Whether it is because she deliniates it by name when she becomes nida saying "this is my bed" or whether she doesn't say it but it happens to be the last bed she slept in as she became nida.
It's "kvia" and it's a halochic thing.
Same with the seat. If a man for some reason keeps changing seats in the dining room (and I think this is an absurd because how many people keep changing seats over and over, people are drawn towards continuity, same way that in the living room they have the place that they prefer to sit down usually, but certainly at the dining room table) then "his seat" is where he is sitting last. And no one is permitted halochically to sit there without permission, certainly in his presence.
You are looking for something that isn't there. No one is DEMANDING anything unless you think that HALOCHO is demanding something, If so, yeah, Halocho is demanding something from us all the time. It is demanding that a man not sit on his wife's bed, it is demanding that if you wear a four cornered garment you put on tzizis on it, it is demanding for us to separate when we are nida etc. Halocho demands all the time!
The reason that these halochos....or in other cases, traditions - if you want to call them such - exist is that it's nice that you give your husband respect in a tangible sense (we aren't talking "in your heart" or verbally" but physically in something that can be seen as well) because you think he deserves it. But what if you are angry at him one day? That day you won't give him respect? Because you know that's how people are, they get angry, they then slam doors and do lots of other nasty things. But let's say that you "don't feel" like keeping shabbos one week...you don't love shabbos enough to keep it. "If you are a frum yid what do you do? Be mechalel shabbos?
Same here. The halochos and traditions are to give us a framework. Because sometimes we just don't feel like doing something. And if we only did what we felt like, there would be no consistency in our lives. A big problem. Particularly when it comes to religion. That's why some things in fact many things are mandated.
A man finishes reading a book titled "Man Of The House" and goes over to his wife to lay down the law. He tells her that he expects her to cook him a gourmet meal and bake him a delicious dessert. Afterwards, he tells her that she is to draw him a nice warm bath.
He asks her, "Do you know who will bathe me and comb my hair?"
The wife replies, "The chevra kadisha?"
Bottom line: Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Guy dies and sees two lines. One stretches forever, the other has one person in it. He asks someone in the long line, what is this line for? "Oh, this is for men who were henpecked husbands." He goes and asks the other guy what his line is for. "I dunno, my wife told me to stand here."
How many men does it take to open a can of beer?
None, the wife opens it before she brings it to him.
OK, new survey: how many husbands participated in the decision of whether or not to send the kids to camp and where to, and what to do during the home and downtimes?
Yeah well, not all places have many parents taking the kids out daily after school/camp, because it is enough and bc parents are tired. Same reason they dont want playdates. And for some kids one hour a day isnt enough. And finally... At 6+ hour a kid with a full day is tired, then he eats, and off to bed at 8 or 9 in preschool... Btdt. Just a fact.
I was told if you switch bed there is no your or his bed. Not our case, but what I learned.
I guess I am lucky that my husband wants me to treat him in a way that works for my culture. As my friends do, too. As I learned. Asseh lecha rav.
Last edited by Ruchel on Wed, Aug 03 2011, 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
I couldn't do this all summer. Camp is a real sanity saver.
Maybe this is what draws american and Israeli posters apart. Our school breaks are 11-12 weeks long, that's about 77-84 consecutive days of mommy camp. I wonder how one pulls that through.
