Heard about that Kitov, didn't know we had so much impact.
We aren't talking about a husband saying out of the blue "we are moving to Costa Rica". That is rare. But someone has to make the final decision and the question is whether the wife agrees or files for divorce or separation. That, too, happens.
There is no "compromise" in certain things. Like what, We will keep kosher at home and treif outside? And if you don't want to eat treif then don't eat but watch me eat treif? How many men will be willing to have their kids raised like that?
Most things if spouses have checked things out before marriage and haven't changed their shitos, are known in advance. If someone changes, as Ruchel said, that's a very different story and can be a deal breaker in a marriage. But I don't see all the problems and I don't see it as "deferring" but rather as derekh eretz. Isn't the man supposed to be the head of the family traditionally, halochically, and in all Jewish senses? Isn't that the way it has always been since time immemorial? It's only feminism which has changed that declaratively. So what many of you are saying is that you are feminists and you put that above judaism, am I understanding you correctly? Because in Yiddishkeit there is NO compromise in terms of things like sheitl, if the shita is that ONLY a sheilt is acceptable no man in that shita will accept a wife who will wear a sheitl when she is with him but allow her to wear a hat and not a sheitl otherwise. Or vice versa in the case of a shita which keeps that sheitls are totally ossur for any and every reason.
I am, of course, a proud feminist.
But even if I were not, I do not see how or where Judaism requires that the husband make all the decisions, and that the wife has to go along with him, no matter what.
You want your husband telling you when its time to move, whether you're allowed to wear the blue dress to lunch, what colors to paint your walls, what school your children should attend, how to style your hair, and what color to paint your nails, knock yourself out. I don't call that marriage, I call it servitude. But don't tell me that because my husband considers my opinions, the same way that I consider his, and that we make our decisions together, that I'm any less a Jew than you are.
And like several of us have said, we are a marriage, not a body, not a cooperation, not a car or other analogies that I have seen used.
Isn't the man supposed to be the head of the family traditionally, halochically, and in all Jewish senses? Isn't that the way it has always been since time immemorial? It's only feminism which has changed that declaratively. So what many of you are saying is that you are feminists and you put that above judaism, am I understanding you correctly?
From what I always understood, it was indeed like that from time immemorial, for CULTURAL reasons.
Not JEWISH reasons.
Women were less educated and thought to be less intelligent.
Today this isn't true and I can't think of any reason why a man should automatically be "head of the household" making the decisions and ruling the roost.
Why is this putting feminism above Judaism? What is the JEWISH source for male leadership in the home?
How is your public speaking showing disrespct for your husband?!
She is a frum Jew but most of her followers are anti-feminist christians.
Also, Friedasima- you are even harsher to women than the anti-feminists because together with being the subservient woman and doing everything for the house and kids, you think women need to work too.
For some of you women to write what you do about marriage and two heads, you really either know lots of women married to dictators or may have experienced it yourself. Why do you keep taking it to an extreme thinking that saying that a man is the "head of the household" means that he makes the decisions without taking his wife's needs and opinions into consideration and without consulting with her?
I don't get your scenario that you don't need a "head" be it the man or the woman (for feminists sake). Let's say there is an impasse. A decision has to be made that will affect the entire household. In most cases if it is domestic, which is 90% of the stuff in life actually, men and especially religious men, almost always do what the wife suggests as domestic is basically a woman's domain. In very few cases, where he has a strong opinion about something domestic (I.e. my husband wants a sand colored wall in the dining area) he will voice that opinion. Who will be doing the painting? In the long run that's the person who will decide WHEN it will be done. Could be that it will be on the cards for a year or more until it gets executed and then again, its usually the woman taking care of the domestic nitty gritty so once again the timing or putting it off for a very long time, is in her hands.
Then let's talk about the other 10% of stuff. Much of that has to do with religious stuff in which case halocho mandates that you go according to the man. So no quesiton there. That leaves maybe 5% or less of things which are not domestic, not religious and affect the family. So what happens there?
Hey are there so many male idiotic dictators out there who will make a random decision without taking his wife's needs into account not 1% not 10% but 50% if not more just like he has a 50% decision? Why are you women marrying such dictators? Didn't you check this out before marriage? What did you talk about exactly the state of the union message?
That's what pre-marital meetings, aka dates, are all about. Not just having fun but even a couple that meets only three times before engagement can talk these things out and know what they are getting themselves into and how much you are marrying a dictator.
A dictator is not the "head of the household". it's stam a dictator. Could be that there are women like that too who ride roughshod over their husbands needs and make all the decisions and make life difficult for everyone. They are called "klaftas" anyone know some?
I know more kalftas then male dictators, both in real life and in my practice....so...
Saying that a man is the head of the household comes from a number of things. Usually the man is physically stronger and therefore responsible for the physical welfare of his family and to physically protect them which gives him added zechuyos. Second men have torah requirements and according to torah are literally WORTH more than women as their zechuyos of torah are greater because their chovos are greater. If you don't like that....change the torah. It's a din. That means that a good, kind and wonderful husband GIVES of his zechuyos to his wife so that in his mind not only are they equal but she is even above him in so many things.
But it means that in terms of kovod, especially in front of your children, you treat your husband like a king. And a king simply outranks a queen. Anywhere and everywhere in hierarchy. Who doesn't like that can change the non jewish monarchial hierarchy too along with the torah.
Saying that a man is the head of the household doesnt mean that you don't make decisions together. But that when there is an impasse, one is going to have to give in. Not "compromise" which is that everyone gets something but there are times that it's either going to be black or white. Not grey. So which one is it going to be? Once black and once white?
Everyone always says kids need consistency. Theyaren't stupid. they see that mommy has her things she is good at and daddy has his. But in their mind who is the "head of the household"?
Instead of talking about it - go ask your kids what they think - if they have to say "who is the head of the household - not "house" as to little kids that means mommy of course - who is it, mommy or daddy?" and see what they say. Cause without prompting I doubt they will say "they do it together.".
I am willing to bet anti feminist Xtians do NOT have such a schedule. And understand the need to rest when exhausted, and certainly with a baby or small kid in order to preserve their fertility! lol
That said, my dh doesn't see it as a lack of general derech eretz if I don't get up for him especially in these times and places... and even when it used to be done, the father can say enough with this, as stipulated by halacha. Even to the kids, who need to respect him even more. So you believe it still is needed today, ok! but at least keep it theory and say you renounce it!
I just asked my husband if he knows such families. He thought hard, said no, and then asked if it is happening in Persia or a Persian family (stereotype here: very heavily traditional and man dominated - in truth they also do not do that in his experience).
He knows of 2 or 3 families, though, where the KIDS stand when one of the parents come in. He thinks it is beautiful, but unneeded. All charedim, Yekke, 2 Germans, 1 Austrian.
I also don't get the public speaking. My husband is supposed to speak instead of me? even if I know the topic and he doesn't? he is pretty proud when I am given kavod, because I'm his half.
I honestly struggle with on one side, standing and giving tons of big decisions to a husband, and on the other side, deciding what is to me the biggest decision (kids when and how many) but also micro managing his personal stuff (clothes, relatives).
That's what pre-marital meetings, aka dates, are all about. Not just having fun but even a couple that meets only three times before engagement can talk these things out and know what they are getting themselves into and how much you are marrying a dictator.
Ok, here we agree.
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Usually the man is physically stronger
When I said just this, you said women are strong and don't need chores help!
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according to torah are literally WORTH more than women
LOL. I've known some pretty traditionalist and even anti women (not anti feminist, anti women) rabbis, but this I never heard. Not my culture, I guess.
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But it means that in terms of kovod, especially in front of your children, you treat your husband like a king. And a king simply outranks a queen. Anywhere and everywhere in hierarchy. Who doesn't like that can change the non jewish monarchial hierarchy too along with the torah.
I agree with the ranks. Except there's no way we treat anyone in this household as king and queen before we are. It's just not real life to us.
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Instead of talking about it - go ask your kids what they think - if they have to say "who is the head of the household - not "house" as to little kids that means mommy of course - who is it, mommy or daddy?" and see what they say. Cause without prompting I doubt they will say "they do it together.".
Ok, tried.
First answer: Mati. (and I thought we were maybe too disciplining!)
Second answer: Mama. Why? "Because she puts make up on me".
I sometimes hear stay-at-home mothers proudly saying that they "work just as hard as women who also have a job outside the home" or that "their days are as packed as anyone's" and they have no time or space to breathe.
I believe, however, that the point of our staying home isn't to measure up against those who try to successfully juggle family life and career. After all, a large part of the joy of home is opting out of the rat race, right? And what have we done if we can say that our days are as hectic as if we also held a job outside the home?
There's an enormous pressure on stay-at-home mothers to prove that they aren't "wasting their time", to justify their being at home for their families – something that doesn't need to be justified, in my opinion, but still often leads to mothers accepting extra responsibilities and activities (even if they have enough on their plate already) such as social functions, volunteering, watching other people's children, starting home businesses, and trying to fill up every moment of the day.
Ladies, we don't have to be overwhelmingly busy in order to be hardworking wives and mothers. On the contrary, I believe it would be counter-productive. Again, if we opted to stay home in order (among other things) not to be frazzled and to have peace of mind, which is so much more conductive to happy and smoothly flowing family life, and yet we frantically attempt to erase every trace of relaxation from our days, what have we accomplished?
A couple of generations ago, the modern pace of life which has now become the norm would have been seen for what it really is – crazy. Restless. Unhealthy for families, for little children. We should be proud, not ashamed, of keeping an island of peacefulness in the midst of the world's rush, rush, rushing to nowhere. It's important to set a gentle, quiet rhythm to our days, to take a look at what already is on our plate – and if you have at least one little child at home, I'm estimating that in most cases it's more than enough – before we accept additional responsibilities, try to achieve perfection, or in any way turn our days into a hazy blur of ticking things off a to-do list.
The fact is, a day at home with your little one(s) will most likely be full and busy whether or not you try to make it so. We don't have to try and cram more into our day in order to be continuously occupied. It usually happens on its own!
I'm with FS on what I would call benign dictatorship.
Whoever said that it used to be that the husband dictated only due to culture is partially right, in my view. It's true that culture used to say that the husband was the boss. In fact, culture was accepting of hierarchy and authority across the board. What we're now experiencing culturally with regard to the family unit is one of many outgrowths of the democratic era. It enables people to break free from what would otherwise be their destiny, and on the downside it assists the breakdown of society.
Now, the old culture, which has probably assisted FS in being able to implement this Torah-dik authority structure into her family unit (I mean because FS is a bit older than many of us, and any older means closer to previous culture), can be argued to be closer to Torah than the current culture, at least in the aspect that the husband had authority. However, thr Torah position is that the husband is a benign dictator, whereas the dictatorship that we see in our world today, where it does exist (e.g. Arab governments) is not benign. The culture of husbands being the authority in their households in previous generations was also not necessarily a benign type of dictatorship.
I think we tend to oppose authority because we don't trust it and respect it, because we believe it's given out to the wrong people. So, many wives are afraid to submit to their husbands on any level, because we believe that he doesn't understand, won't take our needs into account etc and we must wrest the authority from him lest he chas vesholom restrict us and ruin our lives. In fact, as FS is explaining, that is not the case when you put it into practice. If we grow in our emuna, we can realize that there is a G-d and that He knows what He is doing. Moreover, if we examine the psychological underpinnings of our individual resistance to this structure, some of us may discover that we resented authority figures we had earlier in our lives that we believed abused authority, and as a result of that, we are wary of being beholden to anyone.
Really, in G-d's system of government, everyone is beholden to someone.
Freidasima, you are inspiring me. I am stunned by some of this thread. (And bored by other parts )
Ruchel that's all nice in theory but in practice when there are things that have to get done, someone has to do them! And if a woman is home all day with the kids while her husband is out working, well she's going to be that "one" unless they can afford to outsource with a maid and a housekeeper and prepared foods or if they even WANT prepared foods.
Now, the old culture, which has probably assisted FS in being able to implement this Torah-dik authority structure into her family unit (I mean because FS is a bit older than many of us, and any older means closer to previous culture), can be argued to be closer to Torah than the current culture, at least in the aspect that the husband had authority. However, thr Torah position is that the husband is a benign dictator, whereas the dictatorship that we see in our world today, where it does exist (e.g. Arab governments) is not benign. The culture of husbands being the authority in their households in previous generations was also not necessarily a benign type of dictatorship.
I think we tend to oppose authority because we don't trust it and respect it, because we believe it's given out to the wrong people. So, many wives are afraid to submit to their husbands on any level, because we believe that he doesn't understand, won't take our needs into account etc and we must wrest the authority from him lest he chas vesholom restrict us and ruin our lives. In fact, as FS is explaining, that is not the case when you put it into practice. If we grow in our emuna, we can realize that there is a G-d and that He knows what He is doing. Moreover, if we examine the psychological underpinnings of our individual resistance to this structure, some of us may discover that we resented authority figures we had earlier in our lives that we believed abused authority, and as a result of that, we are wary of being beholden to anyone.
Really, in G-d's system of government, everyone is beholden to someone.
Freidasima, you are inspiring me. I am stunned by some of this thread. (And bored by other parts )
Again, what is the Torah SOURCE for all this?! (The Torah position is that the husband is a benign dictator?!)
And yes, some womens' lives CAN be extremely ruined by just giving themselves over to their husbands. Just read some of the threads on here to see what some husbands are like!
Some people will indeed abuse authority.
And yes, I do know how to take authority- from Hashem. And from people in the appropriate place and time.
(For example, from my boss only in those areas where she is supposed to have it, and yes also from my DH if we've decided that a certain area is his responsibility)
Ruchel that's all nice in theory but in practice when there are things that have to get done, someone has to do them! And if a woman is home all day with the kids while her husband is out working, well she's going to be that "one" unless they can afford to outsource with a maid and a housekeeper and prepared foods or if they even WANT prepared foods.
Of course the person who has more time and more energy whoever it is, will have to do it.
From what I see, a husband who works out, FT but very easy job, will help a LOT a housewife who happens to be tired by the kid(s).
If the husband comes home already half asleep, of course the wife has to do it.
I see a nice number of people coming home after work and commute and less exhausted than the SAHP. Extreme case: my x neighbour went back to work, and her husband stayed with the kids, because she had no koyech for being a SAHM to 2 teens, a kid and a baby.
Now, the old culture, which has probably assisted FS in being able to implement this Torah-dik authority structure into her family unit (I mean because FS is a bit older than many of us, and any older means closer to previous culture), can be argued to be closer to Torah than the current culture, at least in the aspect that the husband had authority. However, thr Torah position is that the husband is a benign dictator, whereas the dictatorship that we see in our world today, where it does exist (e.g. Arab governments) is not benign. The culture of husbands being the authority in their households in previous generations was also not necessarily a benign type of dictatorship.
I think we tend to oppose authority because we don't trust it and respect it, because we believe it's given out to the wrong people. So, many wives are afraid to submit to their husbands on any level, because we believe that he doesn't understand, won't take our needs into account etc and we must wrest the authority from him lest he chas vesholom restrict us and ruin our lives. In fact, as FS is explaining, that is not the case when you put it into practice. If we grow in our emuna, we can realize that there is a G-d and that He knows what He is doing. Moreover, if we examine the psychological underpinnings of our individual resistance to this structure, some of us may discover that we resented authority figures we had earlier in our lives that we believed abused authority, and as a result of that, we are wary of being beholden to anyone.
Really, in G-d's system of government, everyone is beholden to someone.
Freidasima, you are inspiring me. I am stunned by some of this thread. (And bored by other parts )
Again, what is the Torah SOURCE for all this?! (The Torah position is that the husband is a benign dictator?!)
And yes, some womens' lives CAN be extremely ruined by just giving themselves over to their husbands. Just read some of the threads on here to see what some husbands are like!
Some people will indeed abuse authority.
And yes, I do know how to take authority- from Hashem. And from people in the appropriate place and time.
(For example, from my boss only in those areas where she is supposed to have it, and yes also from my DH if we've decided that a certain area is his responsibility)
It is weaved into the fabric of Torah, all over the place. Some examples off the top of my head: A wife can be divorced if she is considered a moredes. Isha ksheira Osa Ratzon Baala. The Rambam writes the obligations of a wife to her husband. He says the husband should be like a King in her eyes, she should respect him b'yoser miday, and something along the lines that she has to endeavor to do everything according to his preferences. A wife takes on her husband's minhagim. Some of them, she might not have to, depending on whether her husband is makpid. A husband can be mofir a wife's neder.
Once upon a time, and still today in some cases, I agree the husband should do a benign dictatorship.
But when the woman is as (or more! especially today when many women study/work while the man goes straight from yeshiva to kollel!) worldly as the man, it is at BEST unneeded, and certainly not fair. Nowadays the wife isn't like "the oldest child", if she ever was.
And if we want to talk about previous generations, I wouldn't describe my parents or grandparents' marriage that way. Great grandparents, maybe.
It is weaved into the fabric of Torah, all over the place.
I see what you mean. I think it depends on (rabbinical, not ours!) interpretation, after.
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A wife can be divorced if she is considered a moredes.
I think moredes has precise criteria. If a wife refuses relations (without a good reason like health) ever, yes a man can divorce. A woman too, btw. Both can divorce for lo alenu infertility, too.
The "burned dinner" thing was taught to me as "if he hates her so much that a burned dinner is enough, there are such huge issues that the situation is too unhealthy to keep going".
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Isha ksheira Osa Ratzon Baala.
Here I agree with you.
Still some (Chabad?) interpret has modelling her husband's will towards good.
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The Rambam writes the obligations of a wife to her husband. He says the husband should be like a King in her eyes, she should respect him b'yoser miday, and something along the lines that she has to endeavor to do everything according to his preferences.
Rambam is known as very heavily cultural. Pm poster entropy who is a specialist, if you want.
He is a gadol, but I was told personally by a rav the things he says should NOT be applied as such, today, without rabbinical guidance, as many of the tasks he required where either cultural (feet washing) or endearing (if they do not endear, do not do them).
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A wife takes on her husband's minhagim.
I think it is the same idea as tribe is from father.
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Some of them, she might not have to, depending on whether her husband is makpid.
And depending on their customs of it. Toiveling, hair covering, shabbes lighting customs I have heard of people following their mother's. Davening, their father.
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A husband can be mofir a wife's neder.
I learned this is bc he goes out to minian much more often and it is tzniuser than having her go there or research people for the thing.
It is weaved into the fabric of Torah, all over the place. Some examples off the top of my head: A wife can be divorced if she is considered a moredes. Isha ksheira Osa Ratzon Baala. The Rambam writes the obligations of a wife to her husband. He says the husband should be like a King in her eyes, she should respect him b'yoser miday, and something along the lines that she has to endeavor to do everything according to his preferences. A wife takes on her husband's minhagim. Some of them, she might not have to, depending on whether her husband is makpid. A husband can be mofir a wife's neder.
And it also says that a husband needs to respect his wife more than himself. So it works out to mutual respect, not something going one way.
Also, we were always taught that all those things were written in the spirit of the times and not as halacha. IOW cultural norms changing can cause these things to change too, they're not halacha.
Like Ruchel said, so many women these days are more worldly than their husbands. A smart couple will delegate to each spouse according to their strengths and form a good working partnership. That's a marriage IMO.
It is weaved into the fabric of Torah, all over the place. Some examples off the top of my head: A wife can be divorced if she is considered a moredes. Isha ksheira Osa Ratzon Baala. The Rambam writes the obligations of a wife to her husband. He says the husband should be like a King in her eyes, she should respect him b'yoser miday, and something along the lines that she has to endeavor to do everything according to his preferences. A wife takes on her husband's minhagim. Some of them, she might not have to, depending on whether her husband is makpid. A husband can be mofir a wife's neder.
And it also says that a husband needs to respect his wife more than himself. So it works out to mutual respect, not something going one way.
Also, we were always taught that all those things were written in the spirit of the times and not as halacha. IOW cultural norms changing can cause these things to change too, they're not halacha.
Like Ruchel said, so many women these days are more worldly than their husbands. A smart couple will delegate to each spouse according to their strengths and form a good working partnership. That's a marriage IMO.
If they are more worldly, then the husband should seek her counsel or decide to rely on her completely, as often happens in the best of marriages. He may be foolish not to. But that doesn't mean that she's the actual authority.
Once upon a time, and still today in some cases, I agree the husband should do a benign dictatorship.
But when the woman is as (or more! especially today when many women study/work while the man goes straight from yeshiva to kollel!) worldly as the man, it is at BEST unneeded, and certainly not fair. Nowadays the wife isn't like "the oldest child", if she ever was.
And if we want to talk about previous generations, I wouldn't describe my parents or grandparents' marriage that way. Great grandparents, maybe.
I didn't say anything about the wife being like the oldest child. I think that's completely wrong.
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