Ashkenazi genetic convergence over time

KJP ↓

Thu, Dec 01 2022, 11:06 pm

Java wrote:

I mean, it does make sense since we mostly only marry each other lol
But it definitely underlines the need for dor yeshorim, jscreen etc

This was my exact though. We have a lot more ancestors then the Jews from back then, so more potential cousins. Our world is also a lot smaller, and more mixing happens.

vintagebknyc

Thu, Dec 01 2022, 11:13 pm

Amarante wrote:

A few of them have contacted me and whatever common ancestor we have is lost in the mists of time.

I don't know if anyone else has done this kind of DNA test but I must have at least a thousand if not more - none of the surnames are familiar to me at all as none of them have the surnames of my known cousins so they aren't the children of the males who would have the same surname - if that makes sense.

I think the results are accurate because the children of a cousin I know about are on there but they are the only relatives that have any known relationship to me except for shared DNA in some percentage.

I also did Ancestry, last year — 100% Eastern European Jewish — but got a much smaller pool. I knew all the 2nd cousins who were listed, albeit some only by name. But the rest (about 50, max) were third and fourth cousins. I tried figuring out the connections with a few of them but didn’t get anywhere.

↑ Amarante ↓

Thu, Dec 01 2022, 11:56 pm

vintagebknyc wrote:

I have a lot of fourth through sixth cousins.

S1959

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 1:05 am

I also did the ancestry DNA testing and came out 100% E.European Jewish. Lots of names I don't recognize. I would like to know more about my mother's maternal grandparents because we don't know much past them except that they were kohanim.

Last edited by S1959 on Fri, Dec 02 2022, 1:57 am; edited 1 time in total

Raisin ↓

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 4:49 am

Amarante wrote:

I also did one of those DNA tests. Lots of third and fourth cousins keep popping up.

I think that someone may not be your actual second cousin, you just share the same amount of DNA second cousins share, but with ashkenazi Jews, this is because we are so intermarried and share so much DNA.

jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 8:40 am

zohar wrote:

I'm not sure how accurate this is, but I heard that since the Ashkenazi Gene pool is so small, didn't relatives show up as more closely related, like second and third cousins, when they are more like fifth cousins.

delete

Last edited by jkl on Fri, Dec 02 2022, 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 8:51 am

Java wrote:

I mean, it does make sense since we mostly only marry each other lol
But it definitely underlines the need for dor yeshorim, jscreen etc

DY and Jscreen can only do so much. The more we learn about genetics, the more we learn how large of a part is plays into anything. Additionally, genetic testing can only test for what we currently know. It currently is very limited in testing mental issues and other conditions.

I've been thinking about this for some time, along with how we've set up our lives to mostly only interact within our own tight circles. Genetics seems to point to the direction that this is not what Hashem wants, as any species/group who significantly limits their gene pools eventually breeds themselves out of existence.

Based on genetics, it sounds like Hashem wants us to be one large happy family instead of being split up into such tight boxes.

Last edited by jkl on Fri, Dec 02 2022, 9:57 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ Congresswoman ↓

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 9:18 am

jkl wrote:

DY and Jscreen can only do so much. The more we learn about genetics, the more we learn how large of a part is plays into anything. Additionally, genetic testing can only test for what we currently know. It currently is very limited in testing mental issues and other conditions.

I've been thinking about this for some time, along with how we've set up our lives to mostly only interact within our own tight circles. Genetics seems to point to the direction that this is not what Hashem wants, as any species/group who significantly limits their gene pools eventually breed themselves out of existence.

Based on genetics, it sounds like Hashem wants us to be one large happy family instead of being split up into such tight boxes.

This. I think about it all the time.

iyar ↓

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:00 am

jkl wrote:

DY and Jscreen can only do so much. The more we learn about genetics, the more we learn how large of a part is plays into anything. Additionally, genetic testing can only test for what we currently know. It currently is very limited in testing mental issues and other conditions.

I've been thinking about this for some time, along with how we've set up our lives to mostly only interact within our own tight circles. Genetics seems to point to the direction that this is not what Hashem wants, as any species/group who significantly limits their gene pools eventually breed themselves out of existence.

Based on genetics, it sounds like Hashem wants us to be one large happy family instead of being split up into such tight boxes.

When we want to know what Hashem wants we don't study genetics or any other branch of science. Hashem gave us very specific guidelines telling us what He wants from us.
The Torah has detailed instructions on who we marry and have children with. Whether our understanding of science tells us they're beneficial or not, we follow them.
Thank you for posting the video of Dr Abramson, Reality. Very interesting. Listening to his history lectures you have to realize our existence is lemaala min hateva. We can study science and use it to make our lives better, but we're not completely bound by its constraints because we're a fusion of guf and neshama.

↑ Congresswoman ↓

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:03 am

iyar wrote:

How did you come to this understanding?

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:15 am

iyar wrote:

By interacting within our own tight circles I was referring to the current boxes we have today - chassidish, yeshivish, litvish - and the even smaller circles within.

There are no Torah instructions or guidelines to create these small boxes. This is purely a societal construct. So with in mind, and with looking at genetics, it seems like Hashem has set up the world that we should be one large happy Jewish family instead of so many small blocked off groups.

Chayalle ↓

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:15 am

Congresswoman wrote:

How did you come to this understanding?

He has made a marvellous fight in this world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?

-Mark Twain

↑ iyar ↓

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:16 am

Congresswoman wrote:

How did you come to this understanding?

Dr Abramson is a professor of history. He doesn't dramatize things, he just tells it like it happened.
In the lecture Reality posted you hear about the remains of seventeen Jews, some of them young children, who were thrown into a well in Norwich hundreds of years ago. If you want to know more about it you can read more or listen to him describe the facts of what we went through during the Crusades.
I've listened to lectures he gave on Chmielnitzki (spelling?) and gezeiros Tach V'Tat (1648-1649). Chmielnitzki is to this day considered a hero in Ukraine but what our people suffered at his hands is hard to hear about.
Dr Abramson methodically takes us across maps of the world showing our migration across the globe, and describes the persecution we've suffered in every place we've been. We all know about the Holocaust but we may not know how many holocausts we already went through before Germany ever existed.
But we don't just continue to exist as a distinct nation, we continue to study and teach our children the exact same words (this has been proven as well based on ancient parchments that have been found) for over three thousand years. Statistically, that shouldn't be possible.

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:18 am

iyar wrote:

To address this point in context of genetics - it doesn't appear this way. Because of our how we only marry within a limited gene pool, we have a significantly higher rate of many genetic conditions. So much so that genetic researchers actually try to get Ashkenazic Jews to be the clinical trial participants.

If it were to be lemaala min hateva, these genetic problems shouldn't be in play. The genetics issue so prevalent within our communities fits perfectly in line with the tevah of the world.

↑ Congresswoman ↓

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:19 am

iyar wrote:

I was referring to the genetic study specifically. How do they show we are above science?

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:20 am

iyar wrote:

But all of this speaks to persecution and treatment. It doesn't speak to the genetics aspect. As we study genetics and become more learned about it, we do see the evidence how it's affecting us negatively.

↑ Congresswoman ↓

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:21 am

jkl wrote:

This.

I’m inquiring about science, NOT philosophy.