Polygamy min haTorah

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

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Shimmysmom

Tue, Sep 20 2005, 3:13 pm

am I the only one here who is soooo bothered by the idea? wouldn't you be insanely jealous?

↑ sarahd ↓

Tue, Sep 20 2005, 3:36 pm

Since my husband can't have two wives at one time, there's nothing to be jealous or bothered about, is there?

Rivka ↓

Tue, Sep 20 2005, 5:10 pm

In the torah it was frowned upon for a man to have more than one wife.
Infact it was only allowed because the men went to war and saw the women of the city they conquered so they were given a deal, yes they could marry this woman, but she had to do all that stuff to look ugly.
The only other people that married more than one wife were those that couldn't have kids with the first wife and instead of getting divorced got another wife. But also note that the ones who had more than one wife were VERY rich. Kings had more than one wife because they were concubines, to keep the peace with the neighbouring country. But Shlomo was said to have too many wives ( tihink all would agree that 1000 wives is a bit much) so that is what caused his misery at the end of his life.
R' Gershon was the one who put the ban on marrying more than one wife because it causes trouble. Look at the story with Chana and Peninah. No matter how mean Peninah was, do you think it was fair that each time Chana had a child one of hers died???
It deffinately caused jealousy. Look at Sara and Hagar. Sarah told Avraham to marry her to have a child, but maybe regretted it and once she had a son made him send her away.
Yaakov had 4 wives and there was deffinately rivalry going on between them....imagine the hormones...one wife is quite enough but imagine having constant PMSing in your house...I don't think the sanest person would cope.
I certainly would not marry someone who was already married and now-days the women can also make money.

Motek ↓

Tue, Sep 20 2005, 5:49 pm

Roza wrote:

it's man's nature to have more then one wife.

says who?

Rivka wrote:

In the torah it was frowned upon for a man to have more than one wife.

true

and it was NOT common

Quote:

Infact it was only allowed because the men went to war and saw the women of the city they conquered so they were given a deal, yes they could marry this woman, but she had to do all that stuff to look ugly.

no
what you're writing about is the case of the "isha yifas to'ar" in the beginning of parshas Ki Seitzei, a special case
nothing to do with a man taking more than one wife in general

Quote:

But also note that the ones who had more than one wife were VERY rich.

My husband knew an Iranian guy whose father had four wives. He had 50 something siblings. And each wife was set up in her own home in a different location. So yes, you must have the money to be able to support each wife and her children. The husband must provide each wife with food, clothing, conjugal rights, etc.

Quote:

Kings had more than one wife because they were concubines

no
some were full wives (kesuba) while others were concubines (pilegesh - no kesuba)
Shlomo Ha'Melech had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
King Rechavam had 18 wives & 60 concubines.

Torah says (parshas Shoftim) king shouldn't have too many wives, Rashi says he can have 18.

Quote:

Look at the story with Chana and Peninah. No matter how mean Peninah was, do you think it was fair that each time Chana had a child one of hers died???

fair?!
you are talking about great women, both of them, and about Hashem's judgment!
Penina made hurtful comments to Chana l'sheim shomayim (for the sake of heaven) but even though she meant well, she was punished.

Quote:

It deffinately caused jealousy. Look at Sara and Hagar. Sarah told Avraham to marry her to have a child, but maybe regretted it and once she had a son made him send her away.

Remember? Sarah is one of the Imahos! Do you think Sarah had jealousy problems and therefore got rid of Yishmael!?

The pasuk and Rashi explain that it was Yishmael's terrible behavior and Sarah's fear of how this would influence Yitzchok that motivated her. And Hashem approved! Hashem told Avrohom to listen to Sarah!

Quote:

Yaakov had 4 wives and there was deffinately rivalry going on between them....imagine the hormones

sorry, but this is not how we talk about the Imahos

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Tue, Sep 20 2005, 6:08 pm

Motek wrote:

Remember? Sarah is one of the Imahos! Do you think Sarah had jealousy problems and therefore got rid of Yishmael!?

I believe Ramban says something to this effect.

shanie5 ↓

Tue, Sep 20 2005, 6:13 pm

personally, I tell my dh that if he ever thinks he can afford another wife just let me know- I'll start spending more LOL

↑ technic

Tue, Sep 20 2005, 6:26 pm

del

Last edited by technic on Wed, Dec 28 2005, 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ JEWISHMAMA

Wed, Sep 21 2005, 3:54 am

LOL technic.
no wonder he´s been so stressed lately he must of taken another wife and forgot to mention it!

carrot ↓

Wed, Sep 21 2005, 1:19 pm

I am NOT saying that I would want my husband to take another wife, BUT:

Other cultures totally do not see the whole idea of there being a "relationship" between husband and wife. Not like in our culture where see it as the most important thing etc. For them it is just a matter of a comfortable and convenient arrangement. So for example, while we would likely say that the person closest to us is (or should be) our husband, that is not what other women in other cultures or times would say. For those women, a second wife can easily fill the role of a comrade, even a sister sort of relationship. Help eachother out, share advice, even commiserate about their husband's awful table manners (or whatever.) They can be good buddies.

Also, you know how much work it is to be woman: you are a wife, a mother, a cook, a housekeeper, etc. plus sometimes you also work for money... Well if there is more than one wife then each one in a way has that much less work to do. Especially when you consider that there were no machines etc., maybe you would want a co-wife?

I am NOT advocating polygamy just playing devil's advocate.

I once read a book about geishas. It said that in Japan it was considered the normal respectable thing for an upper class man to build a relationship with a geisha. BTW geishas did NOT have physical relations with their clients - they were cultured educated companions who the men could talk to and bounce ideas off of regarding important things. There was confidentiality. Meanwhile the wives of the men who hung out with the geishas were seen as JUST there to take care of the house, raise children etc. And they did not mind their husband's going to geishas, because it was normal and expected. It was not a secret thing. At a man's funeral "his" geisha (that he sponsored, gave gifts to, etc.) would come and be an important mourner together with the wife.

Whatever it's hard for me to imagine but lots of things can happen in this universe.

Also I have seen some of those Mormons from Utah. A man and a few women and a bunch of kids. It looked just like a big frum family out for a chol hamoed trip.

↑ Rivka ↓

Wed, Sep 21 2005, 6:52 pm

Other cultures (like Mormons or Arabs) may have other wives, but it doesn't mean it is a good thing and who says they treat their wives any better because of it? I don't think they do.
Another thing. Geysha;s...I don't think they are treated well at all.
So for them it's the second wife for the husband's sake and that is all, it's nothing to do with the woman or how the woman feels even though it's her who is playing second fiddle.
I don't think the modern world sees it as a good thing either. You get men cheating on their wives or wives cheating on husbands and neither party is happy about the other person in their spouse's life, so I doubt it would go down well for a man to have two wives...plus it's illegal.

↑ carrot

Wed, Sep 21 2005, 10:35 pm

Rivka wrote:

Other cultures (like Mormons or Arabs) may have other wives, but it doesn't mean it is a good thing and who says they treat their wives any better because of it? I don't think they do.

I don't think that the husbands treat their wives any better because they have more than one, but that maybe the wives might make each other's lives easier. I am just speculating, I don't know. Do you think they would treat their wives worse? Or is there something in the culture that would lead both to polygamy and treating wives badly?

BTW there is another culture that has polygamy that I know about - African tribes. Everyone has as many as they can - the wives work and it is sort of like having more property. Like having more work animals, but more prestigious sort of animal. The wealthier guys have more wives. But I don't really know much about this either and I definitely don't want to trade lives with those people.

Quote:

Another thing. Geysha;s...I don't think they are treated well at all.

In the one or two books that I read they were sort of like movie stars. With some of the same benefits and drawbacks. They were very regimented and trained from a young age but on the other hand if they were successful they lived wealthy and glamorous lives.

Quote:

So for them it's the second wife for the husband's sake and that is all, it's nothing to do with the woman or how the woman feels even though it's her who is playing second fiddle.

No, it's definitely not done FOR the wives' sakes. But if they never had any expectation of a meaningful "peer" relationship with their husbands, then who says they mind. I think the Asian culture is the most different from ours you can get, that's why all I'm saying is "what do I know."

For example here are a few more "weird" things I read about - the girl who was taken away to become a geisha, still wanted some security of home - so the new woman who was now in charge of her allowed her to fall asleep with her in her bed - sucking her breast - and I think she was about seven years old then, and that was how she always fell asleep?!? And she continued falling asleep that way for a good few more years. Also I think I read something about it being normal for men to bathe together with their daughters.

Quote:

I don't think the modern world sees it as a good thing either. You get men cheating on their wives or wives cheating on husbands and neither party is happy about the other person in their spouse's life, so I doubt it would go down well for a man to have two wives...plus it's illegal.

That's true! (Although you will still find people interested in all sorts of "kinky" things...)

↑ roza ↓

Thu, Sep 22 2005, 12:18 am

Motek wrote:

Roza wrote:

it's man's nature to have more then one wife.

says who?

well, if it's in Torah, then it's according to natural order of things as Hashem created them ("histakel b'Oraisa u'vara alma").

obviously the nature of man changed since then and the halacha was changed accordingly. (another example - we don't follow some medical advises given in Torah, can't remember which ones- green onion comes to mind)

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Sep 22 2005, 3:51 pm

[quote="roza"][quote="Motek"]

Roza wrote:

it's man's nature to have more then one wife.

Quote:

well, if it's in Torah, then it's according to natural order of things as Hashem created them ("histakel b'Oraisa u'vara alma").

I'm not following the reasoning. The fact that a few Torah figures (not Yitzchok, not Yosef, not Moshe, not Aharon) had more than one wife means, you say, that it's man's nature to have more than one wife?! So why didn't all Torah figures have more than one wife?

I don't think it has anything to do with nature or nature changing. I see no evidence for that. And no halachos were changed.

↑ roza ↓

Thu, Sep 22 2005, 9:07 pm

[quote="Motek"][quote="roza"]

Motek wrote:

Roza wrote:

it's man's nature to have more then one wife.

Quote:

well, if it's in Torah, then it's according to natural order of things as Hashem created them ("histakel b'Oraisa u'vara alma").

don't see the connection with who had how many wives. the fact is- it's allowed( was), it's in the Torah, it was practiced.
and now not any more.

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Sep 22 2005, 9:18 pm

Quote:

the fact is- it's allowed( was), it's in the Torah, it was practiced

agree! Just don't agree about it being man's nature to have more than one wife as a general rule!

Quote:

now not any more.

not because nature changed or halacha changed, but because of the cherem

when my father-in-law visited in Israel shortly after it became a State, he said it was pathetic how the govt. forced the Yemenites or other Sefardim to divorce all wives but one, so cruel, ruining people's lives

some things in the State of Israel don't change Mad

↑ roza ↓

Thu, Sep 22 2005, 9:34 pm

Motek wrote:

Quote:

the fact is- it's allowed( was), it's in the Torah, it was practiced

agree! Just don't agree about it being man's nature to have more than one wife as a general rule!

Quote:

now not any more.

not because nature changed or halacha changed, but because of the cherem

ok, so, the nature is still there- a man's nature (he is capable to ) is to have more then one wife. it's just the herem that does not let them act upon it.
got it.

↑ Rivka ↓

Sat, Sep 24 2005, 4:58 pm

Uuh what nature? There is no "man's nature" to have more than one wife, if it were then there would be no cherem.

hadasa

Sat, Sep 24 2005, 5:47 pm

Doesn't the fact that men cheat more than women say something about their nature?

↑ stem ↓

Sat, Sep 24 2005, 10:06 pm

no. it proves that men are more physically oriented than women. a man who doesn't gets physical satisfaction at home will be more likely to go and find it somewhere else (internet, magazines, other women CH"V).

If anything, having two wives means the man has to deal with two women, give them both what they need most - emotional bonding, love, support, and understading - which is hard enough for men to do with one wife, let alone more!

↑ Tefila ↓

Sat, Sep 24 2005, 10:51 pm

Quote:

Doesn't the fact that men cheat more than women say something about their nature?

Exactly

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