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Forum
-> Relationships
-> Simcha Section
miriamnechama
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 Wed, Dec 26 2007, 10:21 am
cute. you remind me of the royal familly coming out on the royal balcony ie teh bride and groom for teh royal kiss in frount of thousands... saw it on tv when dian andcharles and fergie and andrew married.
anyways, about 7 nikkiim, I learnt also in kiruv classes that alot of girls will toivel even with a pd.. in israel if you go through te rabanut you have to bring a paper back saying yo uwent to mikva or you don't get the kesuba or marriage license.. went though that myself... they make you go to teh rebetzen who gives you a th book to read and then wan't a paper also signed taht you learnt the halachos.. I think teh paper of teh mikva I never gave back... hmm the rabbi in te end lives in teh same town.. saw I was religious so gave it to me, but alot of girls will just go to the mikva whatever teh case is.. no necessarily is it a kosher tevila.... but most will write supervised tevila and taht's it. we were told not to doa big deal out of it but later to talk to her, or offer her details callses etc. it's the same with a woman not religious wqho comes and tovels eg on day 6 of nekiim, if you knwo she won't come back if you sendher home better toivel her then and ten explain te mistake so she can decide for her self if to correct or not.
my sil is not religious, we went it was 7 years ago, il's made suretah tfor religious was a mechtza so men couldn't see mixed dancing and a good hechsher.... she got married north and chuppa was inmeron.. so we traveled 5 hours alone from jerusalem.... ok it did bother me the mixed dancing, no kol isha but what could you do?? I'm very close with her. also she wantedto learn about th and she keeps it bh now everything.... she went according to calender. ok her dh is sefardi so maybe it makes more difference don't know.....(he's also not religious)
have also a cousin who had none religious marriage... ten it was worse. but if it was important forfamilly so one has to make effort I think, by cosuin, so I have one uncle belzer chossid who came..... well broithers are brothers andhe was a brother to the chosson's father.. so can happen oneis lke this and other is like that...
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Ruchel
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 10:23 am
| Clarissa wrote: | | amother wrote: | | My not frum brother-in-law is also engaged to a not frum but thankfully Jewish woman. They are not having an Orthodox ceremony. My husband thinks I should try to talk to her abt mikvah. (She is rather open minded). I think she would dunk but for a woman thats not enough. You need a hefsek and 7 nikiim with at least minimal bedikas. |
There are women who do mikvah but don't necessarily follow those particular rules to the letter. If she does mikvah at all, it's opening the door to TH. You can explain to her the rules or give her some literature, and see where it leads. |
doesn't it invalidate the mikve if the woman didn't do the first and last bedika?
But it's probably better to go anyway, because she does "something". Unless it wouldn't "count"? I suppose this is a question for a rav...
And yes, there are many women who go to the mikve but find the bedikos "primitive", "a woman knows when she is clean or not".
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Crayon210
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 10:58 am
Isn't it ironic that the only women who don't know when they're clean and continue to bleed/stain just happen to be frum?  ;-)
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amother
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 11:00 am
| Crayon210 wrote: | | Isn't it ironic that the only women who don't know when they're clean and continue to bleed/stain just happen to be frum? ;-) |
I know you're kidding but I don't understand.
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Crayon210
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 11:15 am
This idea Ruchel mentioned is laughable-that women know when they're clean and don't need to check. And then on imamother we have tens of posts each week from women asking about a dot they found here, something on a bedika cloth that's questionable...
So it's fascinating that the only women who have these issues just happen to keep TH (or, of course, women don't "know" when they're clean, and need to follow halacha and CHECK).
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amother
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 11:18 am
| Crayon210 wrote: | This idea Ruchel mentioned is laughable-that women know when they're clean and don't need to check. And then on Imamother we have tens of posts each week from women asking about a dot they found here, something on a bedika cloth that's questionable...
So it's fascinating that the only women who have these issues just happen to keep TH (or, of course, women don't "know" when they're clean, and need to follow halacha and CHECK). |
Yes, but women who don't keep TH don't care if they have a spot, and they don't need cloths or feedback. And women who don't use bedika cloths may just determine that a spot = niddah and they put off mikvah for a day or two, until they're sure they're clean.
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Crayon210
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 11:23 am
I am aware that women who don't keep TH don't care. I was referring to the fact that people go to mikvah based on "knowing" themselves.
Women who push off mikvah for a day or two because they see a spot but don't do bedikos, etc., are not doing the right thing.
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Ruchel
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 11:30 am
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I suppose either they push off, or they don't check their underwear and don't see spots unless it's bleeding... I don't know. I would think someone not doing bedikos at all wouldn't be very meticulous... I know some also just go to mikve on day 12 and don't care, know or remember about the possibility that they would need to go later.
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louche
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 2:11 pm
| GR wrote: | I'm pointing this out here just to make people aware of what just happened in this thread. I don't want to cause hurt feelings.
I like your posts, louche, but this one is out of place. It is obviously important to supermommy that her children not see a bride and groom kiss under the chuppah. Why not post without the sarcasm directed at those who don't want their children seeing that? If that's not one of your values, that's fine, you do what works for you, but this is important to someone else.
This thread will only go downhill now, with people taking sides. It puts people on the defensive and causes an unpleasant atmosphere on the forum. |
Not being excessively fond of PDA's myself (AAMOF, I was shocked to learn that Chassidish couples hold hands on the way to yichud, I wouldn't have dreamed of doing such a thing myself), I completely understand the poster's being uncomfortable with her kids seeing a couple kissing. However, , by covering up her children's eyes, she has #1 called attention to something she'd have been better off not calling attention to, and #2 has as good as told them "this is something shameful/horrible/disgusting". Not a good move.
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gryp
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 3:24 pm
louche, you make a good point but it's lost in the sarcasm which can be insulting in this case. That's all I'm trying to say.
Although there are certain things I will tell my kids not to look at, but I wouldn't exactly cover their eyes unless it was something completely drastic.
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supermommy
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 6:22 pm
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my children are young and don't quite have any idea that they were missing anything. young minds are impressionable and I don't feel they should be bombarded by immodest things if possible. I certainly don't kiss my husband in front of them because I feel it's not in the spirit of tznius to show intimacy in front of them or anybody else. It's a matter of hashkafa and preference.
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Clarissa
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 6:29 pm
| supermommy wrote: | | my children are young and don't quite have any idea that they were missing anything. young minds are impressionable and I don't feel they should be bombarded by immodest things if possible. I certainly don't kiss my husband in front of them because I feel it's not in the spirit of tznius to show intimacy in front of them or anybody else. It's a matter of hashkafa and preference. |
That's fine for you, but you do know that there are times (whether at a special occasion of some kind, on the street or in a movie, if they see any) when they'll see people kissing, right?
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supermommy
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 6:32 pm
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That's beyond my control already but being that I brought them to the wedding I felt the need to protect their eyes. I know that they won't be innocent forever and eventually they will probably see advertisements and all that but that doesn't excuse me from doing my best to keep their minds pure for as long as possible.
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Crayon210
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 6:32 pm
Just because someone will be exposed to garbage in the street doesn't mean that you have to introduce it to your children... 
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Clarissa
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 6:36 pm
| Crayon210 wrote: | | Just because someone will be exposed to garbage in the street doesn't mean that you have to introduce it to your children... |
I'm all for privacy and modesty and whatever you like, but I don't consider married people kissing to be garbage on the street. Just because a couple wants to maintain an atmosphere of privacy in terms of their affection, doesn't mean that have to act like all acts of physical affection between other people is dirty. That's where I think one crosses the line from being tsnius to being uptight, and I don't think it transmits a great message to children. I'm not saying one should applaud if one passes a couple going at it like dogs in heat. I'm saying that it's not shocking or appalling that some people kiss when they marry, and one doesn't need to present it as such, in order to teach good values to the children. Why can't it be, "this is what they do, this is not what we do."
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Crayon210
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 6:40 pm
| Clarissa wrote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | Just because someone will be exposed to garbage in the street doesn't mean that you have to introduce it to your children... |
I'm all for privacy and modesty and whatever you like, but I don't consider married people kissing to be garbage on the street. Just because a couple wants to maintain an atmosphere of privacy in terms of their affection, doesn't mean that have to act like all acts of physical affection between other people is dirty. That's where I think one crosses the line from being tsnius to being uptight, and I don't think it transmits a great message to children. I'm not saying one should applaud if one passes a couple going at it like dogs in heat. I'm saying that it's not shocking or appalling that some people kiss when they marry, and one doesn't need to present it as such, in order to teach good values to the children. Why can't it be, "this is what they do, this is not what we do." |
It is shocking and appalling to me that some people kiss under the chuppah. It was shocking to the Netziv as well. I believe he walked out of a wedding where the bride and groom kissed under the chuppah.
I also don't hold of this "this is what they do, this is not what we do" idea. Tznius needs to be presented to children as an absolute. You can't tell a kid that it's okay for the neighbor to go mixed swimming but not okay for him. That sounds silly. Why is it okay for him and not for me?
Public displays of affection between married people are not appropriate. I do not think the answer is that some people do it, we don't. The answer is that we have the Torah which teaches us tznius, and unfortunately, some people weren't so fortunate to be able to learn about how beautiful tznius is.
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Clarissa
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 6:50 pm
| Crayon210 wrote: | | Clarissa wrote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | Just because someone will be exposed to garbage in the street doesn't mean that you have to introduce it to your children... |
I'm all for privacy and modesty and whatever you like, but I don't consider married people kissing to be garbage on the street. Just because a couple wants to maintain an atmosphere of privacy in terms of their affection, doesn't mean that have to act like all acts of physical affection between other people is dirty. That's where I think one crosses the line from being tsnius to being uptight, and I don't think it transmits a great message to children. I'm not saying one should applaud if one passes a couple going at it like dogs in heat. I'm saying that it's not shocking or appalling that some people kiss when they marry, and one doesn't need to present it as such, in order to teach good values to the children. Why can't it be, "this is what they do, this is not what we do." |
It is shocking and appalling to me that some people kiss under the chuppah. It was shocking to the Netziv as well. I believe he walked out of a wedding where the bride and groom kissed under the chuppah.
I also don't hold of this "this is what they do, this is not what we do" idea. Tznius needs to be presented to children as an absolute. You can't tell a kid that it's okay for the neighbor to go mixed swimming but not okay for him. That sounds silly. Why is it okay for him and not for me?
Public displays of affection between married people are not appropriate. I do not think the answer is that some people do it, we don't. The answer is that we have the Torah which teaches us tznius, and unfortunately, some people weren't so fortunate to be able to learn about how beautiful tznius is. |
It is shocking and appalling to you that people kiss under the chuppah, but you know that many people do. You want to tell your kids that everything is an absolute -- how do you do that? You tell them that Jews don't go mixed swimming? Not so. You tell them that observant Jews don't go mixed swimming? Also not so. Tnius is not absolute, in terms of the guidelines. It is something that is fluid, and affected by the times and the culture.
As far as the question of why is it okay for him and not for me, you don't think your children will ask that? They will always come across people who live differently and do differently, even within groups of Jews, and even within groups of frum Jews. This question will be asked unless you keep your kids locked in the house with the shades down. Prepare yourself to answer it, and hope that your children feel comfortable enough to ask you, rather than exploring on their own without your guidance. Trust me, saying "this is bad and this is good," won't be enough, because they'll see good Jews doing the same things that may appall you.
Read the threads on the Intimacy Board, here and elsewhere. It seems that there are a lot of people who never learned to be comfortable with any form of physical affection, possibly because of their parents' attitude and what was transmitted. Don't think that standing under the chuppah magically transforms a completely sheltered person into an adult who can appreciate married love?
Last edited by Clarissa on Wed, Dec 26 2007, 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lechatchila Ariber
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 6:51 pm
Just because some of you wouldn't do what super did with her kids, doesn't give you a right to challenge and make fun of her.
You don't have to agree but some respect please.
(...and then people say the ultra orthodox like to push their views.. )
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Clarissa
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 6:53 pm
| EstiS wrote: | Just because some of you wouldn't do what super did with her kids, doesn't give you a right to challenge and make fun of her.
You don't have to agree but some respect please.
(...and then people say the ultra orthodox like to push their views.. ) |
And just because some of you don't believe it's okay for people to demonstrate any physical affection, doesn't make the practice of doing so, under the chuppah and elsewhere, the equivalent of "garbage on the street."
You don't have to agree but some respect please.
(and then people say that the ultra Orthodox don't like to push their views... )
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