Calling health dept on frum kosher store

Culturedpearls

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 7:31 am

Call the health department? Are you serious? Did you ask a Rov?
I was in a kosher bakery in my country & saw cockroaches on the food display shelves.
I told the staff & I located the owner but to call the authorities? I believe its assur.
This bakery was busted by the health department to the tune of $150k , but it was from the standard
Health check.

elaela

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 9:19 am

I found yellow cheese, that was expired 8 months for 50%. it had an expired-tag, but seriously: who is buying gouda, that has NOT been frozen and is expired for 8 months? they seriously asked half price Smile

same store I found cheese expired by a week, and they asked full price.
I guess we shouldnt complain too much, cos afterall we should be gratefull that we have kosher shopping options in our town (I dont take that for granted).
you just have to be careful with the expiration dates and read VERY carefully Smile

DovDov

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 10:25 am

Remember also, "expiration dates" are not literally "expiration dates." Some dates are "sell by" dates, expecting that the customer might keep the product at home for several days at least before consumption. Others are "best by" dates where the only issue is flavor degradation. Even "use by" dates usually relate to flavor and not to safety.

That said, I wouldn't use a product with any recommended date 8 months past. But packaged sauce 2 weeks "out of date" -- not a problem unless the package shows signs of contamination.

And frozen food should never become unsafe unless it was allowed to defrost at some point. So the sushi you bought 8 months out of date might TASTE terrible, but if it was properly stored the whole time should not have been what made you sick.

(Which is not to say the store should have sold it to you...)

justforfun87

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 10:29 am

seriously? See I feel we are always frightened away by reporting serious issues because its "assur." If it is a repeated offense then those store owners are stealing from their customers and it is unsafe! In fact you would probably be doing them a favor by reporting repeat offenses before someone gets sick and they trace it back. On the other hand these big stores it is hard to check every item, I have seen expired products at shoprite and when you mention it, they are removed. On the flipside my husband worked as a mashciach for a resteraunt here in town and the owner, wiped his nose no gloves. He scooped cole slaw on to peoples plates with bare hands. He also made my husband pick a mushroom out of the trash that he dropped on the floor. This is disgusting! Why should we be scared away from reporting these things when this is serious violations of health code.

Liba ↓

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 10:34 am

aged cheese is usually more expensive. Unless it is moldy it is hard for cheese to go bad. I would totally buy it for half price if it looked okay.

I think you did your part by bringing the expiration dates to the attention of the manager, but I don't think it is really a health issue and don't believe anyone is in danger from slightly expired packaged foods. I have a bottle of Helmen's canola mayonnaise that we are using now, we get it from the US because of allergy issues, that is six months past the best by date and it is totally fine.

bdot

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 10:42 am

what are you looking to accomplish by reporting the store? to echo other posters, the right thing to do is to speak the the manager/owner, and then follow up. in a case where you feel there is gross negligence, and they are doing nothing to solve the problem, by all means -- report away. but be fair about it.
it bothers me when people jump to do things without thinking about the ramifications (eg. zealously calling the vaad hakashrus because they dont like the way a waitress was dressed- instead of approaching the owner/mashgiach and dealing with it in a mentchlich way. )

OOTBubby

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 10:46 am

During one period of several months, the majority of the items that I purchased in our local kosher grocery had something wrong with them. One had no date on it and the others weren't outdated, but they tasted bad & spoiled. I think they were improperly stored. I returned them (the store is very good about returns even without receipts) and got my money back. The owner wasn't there and I told the cashier to please make sure to see that he is aware of these things.

DH and DS are friendly with the owner and old him what had happened. Of course the cashier never told him about it. The owner called me to find out about it and I told him. Since then I avoid buying anything that can get off-taste easily at that store. I have noticed though that they now have a whole section of outdated items with a sign saying they are expired and selling them at a discount.

zaq

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 10:49 am

Expiration dates on nonperishables are "best by" dates. The food is not unsafe past that date, but it may taste less fresh and the color may have faded or darkened. IOW, it may be less appealing but that's all. If you're a fussy foodie, you may turn up your nose at such items, but they are perfectly safe to eat provided the packaging is intact. The manufacturer is assuming you'll have it on your shelf at home for a time after you buy it, not consume it immediatley upon purchase, and dates it accordingly.

Perishables like meat, fish and dairy products are a different story. One assumes pretty much that fresh meat and fish will be cooked within a day or so of purchase. Dairy products are assumed to be bought for use over the next few days, not necessarily for immeidate consumption, and so are dated accordingly, unless they are labeled "use by" as opposed to 'sell by".

As a matter of menschlichkeit, whether the owner is a frum Jew or a voodoo chieftain, you should first bring any complaints to the owner and try to settle them one-on-one before reporting to the authorities. That holds no matter who the offender or what the offense.

And as has been said, the health dept. is not going to send out an inspector for a case of a jarred condiment or cereal or soda ten days out of date. They might issue a violation if they found this condition during a routine inspection, but they're not going to make a special visit just for a minor issue like this.

How would you like it if, instead of asking you nicely to rake the leaves or shovel the snow off your sidewalk or mow your overgrown lawn or lower the volume of your stereo when you have a party, your next-door neighbor went straight to the city to file a complaint?

↑ MrsDash ↓

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 3:03 pm

Here's an example of some teas we bought from a Stop and Shop. The expired bottles we returned to the store were simply put back on the shelf. That's when we spoke to the manager, and hoped for the best. We also contacted the "Lipton" tea company.

Note how much brighter the contents are from the middle bottle compared to the dull look of the expired bottles on the right and left of it. We later realized that the expiration date was in early September, and it was already mid October when we bought these.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 4:29 pm

Dh works in a grocery store(non kosher but a big chain store) and the people who stuck the shelves WILL loose their job if they leave expired product: its the law I think
Kosher stores in general really could care less because their business I sin demand and they allow themselves way too many unappropriate things and its about time someone gives them a kick in the rear. Im sorry to say but Kosher or not Kosher they shouldn't have expired products on shelves: SIMPLE. Also they could have been nicer to OP by saying" im sorry maam we will take care of it right away" instead of brushing her off

↑ Raizle ↓

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 5:14 pm

amother wrote:

ummm...OP never said they were not nice or brushed her off. You are totally imagining that and inserting it in this thread.

you are projecting your own experiences and deciding that because you experienced that, the OP of this thread should get some random store owner who you don't even know who it is, into trouble.

very mature...what else can I say.

I know store owners who need a kick up their back sides and I know store owners who are mentchlich always out to do the right thing.
so not fair to lump them all in one basket

↑ Liba

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 5:24 pm

When I lived in the US we were OOT and if someone had taken it upon themselves to get the local kosher grocery store fined $150,000 the whole community would have paid, either by the store shutting down and no more kosher store for the community of by higher prices on the items in the store to cover the cost of the fine. The proprietor certainly didn't have that kind of cash laying around to be taught a lesson with.

If you aren't OOT and have lots of kosher stores to pick from, maybe it is a sign that you should patronize a different store. Smile

Either way, realize, if doesn't just affect the owner, it also affects the workers and the customers if they get fined based on your call. It is a serious thing to do and you should #1 give them a chance if this is the only issue and #2 speak with a rav before you potentially ruin someone's livelihood. It is a big deal.

↑ 33055

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 7:07 pm

Raizle wrote:

amother wrote:

I was the one who who management was not nice to. I felt they at the very least owed me a refund on the two items out of date. I think I would be owed that in a non jewish store also.

IMHO, the reason the kosher store could act the way they do is that no one will actually call the authorities. Look at how reluctant I am to name their name on a site where I am anonymous. As I staid my problems were with the biggest store here; and I am sure many others on this site shop there. This store is not hurting for sure. They can afford the fine. In my town, they have a waiver of almost all their property taxes. They charge much more for their goods and they are always crowded.

↑ Chana Miriam S ↓

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 7:23 pm

DovDov wrote:

And frozen food should never become unsafe unless it was allowed to defrost at some point. So the sushi you bought 8 months out of date might TASTE terrible, but if it was properly stored the whole time should not have been what made you sick.

(Which is not to say the store should have sold it to you...)

this is absolutely correct. if a product was not stored properly before it was frozen, even before the expiry date, it would make you sick. the worst thing that can happen to a properly frozen item, even if it is out of date is that it will freezer burn and taste bad.

I vote with my wallet. I never buy even shelf stable items from one of the kosher businesses in town. There have just been too many times where the items were not good (I never even looked at the due date) and the guy would not take them back. I prefer to shop at stores where I get money back and no bad attitude when they sell me unacceptable product. I work as a caterer and recently stopped buying whole fruit at the wholesaler in favour of cut fruit with a hechsher at costco. saves me labour and money as well as I don't have to guess if the melon is good.

once my husband bought rice cakes with a dead mouse hanging out of it. he told management and did not call the health department. they were receptive to his feedback. if they had not been, he would have called public health.

↑ MrsDash

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 7:30 pm

chanamiriam wrote:

DovDov wrote:

That is awful! I'm getting physically ill just thinking about it. Puke

↑ Chana Miriam S

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 7:38 pm

yoshi wrote:

[

That is awful! I'm getting physically ill just thinking about it. Puke

whats really funny is that I totally forgot ab out it and last night, I bought some rice cakes and was eating them and they were definitely past their prime but my husbands response was 'I would never be able to eat those again' an d I was like 'why?' and now,I am pretty sure I will not either. it was like styrofoam, but the reminder of the mouse story (which happened when my 15.5 year old was a baby) just totally grossed me out!

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 17 2011, 8:38 pm

I am currently employed as a cashier. I know more than some of what goes on behind the scenes, though I obviously can't vouch for all around the world, as I haven't worked all around the world yet.

The way it works in our store, and in others in the area, is that the agent from the main companies / suppliers are responsible for rotating stuff( so newer products are in the back), pricing the items, and checking for and removing the out-of-date and almost-out-of-date items. There are relatively very little in this aspect for the store workers to do.

Problem is that not all agents feel so responsible.

When a customer comes to tell us that there is an out of date item, we know to remove them. We exchange the item for the customer. And we appreciate it so much when they use a nice tone of voice.

Thanks for listening.