in some places there is no school on Fridays because chassidish girls stay home to help mommy make shabbos. Just like when mommy has a baby it is a norm that the older chassidish girls miss often up to two weeks of school to care for the little brothers and sisters.
Oy vey...
After that we find them on Imamother, 20 and newlywed, dreading being pregnant and burned out from kids and housework like a 45 yr old.
Just like when mommy has a baby it is a norm that the older chassidish girls miss often up to two weeks of school to care for the little brothers and sisters. It's all in a way of life that puts the KIDS and FAMILY at the center and not a clean house, fancy meals or even schooling for girls, because those girls have to learn the most important thing - taking care of FAMILY.
NEVER EVER NEVER EVER heard of this in my entire life.Frieda, you are outdoing yourself with coming up with all these maases just to paint a certain image about chassidish society.
Wanna really know? If a girl is only LATE to school, her mom gets a call from the school asking about her whereabouts. More than two days in a row of missing school? In your dreams. You must have a real serious excuse. A mother having a baby and missing school? Are you like fantasizing? The whole school can shut down with the amount of babies born.
I haven't commented even once in this entire thread, but I will back up kitov here. So many of the claims made on here about Chassidish family life is ridiculous. And it's even more ridiculous how quickly other posters will jump up to believe it.
Kitov it's shabbos in 60 seconds so I answer fast.
I get my info from my chassidish friends whose lives I am very much part of. And my litvish friends and my sefaradi charedi friends I have them all.
Cheder for chassidish kids here is obviously different than in NY. But it is definitely a norm among chassidish girls here in many circles to take off two weeks after mommy gives birth. Well known here among Satmar, Vizhnitz, Reb Arahlech, just to mention three groups. Maybe not in America, but here certainly.
Shmiras Einayim never stopped chassidim here in EY from taking their kids on the bus out of Geula, Mea Shearim and Bnai Brak, Amazing that chassidim abroad seem to have greater taivos so they don't use the bus.
And what of the girls? Leave the boys alone. Families dont only have boys sitting in cheder all day they have girls too, What, the mommy can't go out with the girls?
sounds to me like a system that people kvetch about non stop but perpetuate non stop when their chassidish counterparts in other places in the world seem to function quite nicely within the same chassidus, go on trips with their kids, mommies and daughters when husbands and sons are learning, and with the same size family 6, 7, 8, and up kids.
So I don't get it. Americans or New York Chassidim are different than any others in the world?
Isramom, I agree with the "ouch".
Did your relative specifically say that she/he was paying or did you just infer that from something? Meaning was this a promise that she backed down on or a misunderstanding?
Whatever, it's not a great situation.
Inferred. Maybe they will cover it - not sure at this point!
So the other day I went to Brooklyn to visit my MIL with the kids. Afterwards, I had a playdate with a friend and 3/4 of her kids.
We went to a park on Ave Y and Bedford. Beautiful shady park, great slides, climbing things, swings etc....and a sprinkler/spray park area. Plus, there were soccer fields, a track and handball courts. That park can satisfy kids of all ages.
If its far from you, make kids walk. That's part of the adventure. I make my 22 month old walk everywhere. Its good for him AND tires him out.
There is also Pier Six that my friend just told me about. (http://www.brooklynbridgeparknyc.org/the-park/pier-6-open) I've never been but she said its fantastic.
There is Marine Park. There is the local mall. Coney Island. There are plenty of free things to do. The subway and bus system are your friend, even if its tough to do. I can do it with 3 under 4, and if your kids are a bit older, it should be a bit easier.
I don't buy the Brooklyn argument.
Let me understand saw50st8. Do you think that 3 under 4 is the hardest and its gets easier as they get older? Yes when they get older they different. You are not changing their diapers but they have different challenges. My first 3 were born within 3 years. When they were young I took them out all the time in brooklyn. I was so known at the Brooklyn Childrens Museum that till this day (5 years later) people still know me there. I even went there in labor with my 3rd kid, thats how much I liked getting out with my kids. But NOW I have 5 kids all born within 7 years and my oldest is 8 1/2 now (only a 6 months younger than Leiby A"H). Taking them to the park alone ALOT harder than when I had those 3 under 3. Taking them all out to the zoo is also ALOT harder than when I had 3 under 3. So NO it doesn't get physically easier unless you stop having kids. Also when we go to the museum now its even harder. There are very very few sections that can cater to all of my kids at the same time. I can only go there with another person OR only with one age group under or over the age of 5 (which all of your kids are under 5 making this a problem you have yet to encounter).
I don't think having 3 under 3 is easy but I wouldn't say that its always unmanageable. I understand that for some women it can be really challenging and I won't discredit that. I just want to point out that I was once in your place but I had it really hard (my DH works alot of hours and I have NO family EVER to go) and yes I survived.
There is a yiddish saying "kliene kinder kliene tzsoros, grosse kinder grosse tzsoros"
I am starting to understand what that means and my oldest is only 8 1/2. OY!!
While you think what you are doing is super are hard. I just laugh and say you must be pretty young and naive.
I haven't commented even once in this entire thread, but I will back up kitov here. So many of the claims made on here about Chassidish family life is ridiculous. And it's even more ridiculous how quickly other posters will jump up to believe it.
This is what makes this such a fun thread. Most of the stuff here doesn't apply to me, not the camp talk anyway. So I can keep my cool without getting emotionally heated up at some clueless posters, but at the same time be eerily amused at how posters portray the chassidishe New York lifestyle.
Let me tell you, nothing compares slightly close to chassidish life in New York. Everywhere, it so so different. It's like New York made its unique stamp on its chassidishe inhabitants, I don't know. But this is just how it is.
Speak to anyone outside of NY marrying a NY girl. Life in NY is so confusing to them at first. But once adjusted, they are now part of this NY chassidishe thing. Believe me.
There is a yiddish saying "kliene kinder kliene tzsoros, grosse kinder grosse tzsoros"
I am starting to understand what that means and my oldest is only 8 1/2. OY!!
[/quote]
We say it a tad different.
Kleine kinder kleine daages, groise kinder groise daages.
So the other day I went to Brooklyn to visit my MIL with the kids. Afterwards, I had a playdate with a friend and 3/4 of her kids.
We went to a park on Ave Y and Bedford. Beautiful shady park, great slides, climbing things, swings etc....and a sprinkler/spray park area. Plus, there were soccer fields, a track and handball courts. That park can satisfy kids of all ages.
If its far from you, make kids walk. That's part of the adventure. I make my 22 month old walk everywhere. Its good for him AND tires him out.
There is also Pier Six that my friend just told me about. (http://www.brooklynbridgeparknyc.org/the-park/pier-6-open) I've never been but she said its fantastic.
There is Marine Park. There is the local mall. Coney Island. There are plenty of free things to do. The subway and bus system are your friend, even if its tough to do. I can do it with 3 under 4, and if your kids are a bit older, it should be a bit easier.
I don't buy the Brooklyn argument.
Let me understand saw50st8. Do you think that 3 under 4 is the hardest and its gets easier as they get older? Yes when they get older they different. You are not changing their diapers but they have different challenges. My first 3 were born within 3 years. When they were young I took them out all the time in brooklyn. I was so known at the Brooklyn Childrens Museum that till this day (5 years later) people still know me there. I even went there in labor with my 3rd kid, thats how much I liked getting out with my kids. But NOW I have 5 kids all born within 7 years and my oldest is 8 1/2 now (only a 6 months younger than Leiby A"H). Taking them to the park alone ALOT harder than when I had those 3 under 3. Taking them all out to the zoo is also ALOT harder than when I had 3 under 3. So NO it doesn't get physically easier unless you stop having kids. Also when we go to the museum now its even harder. There are very very few sections that can cater to all of my kids at the same time. I can only go there with another person OR only with one age group under or over the age of 5 (which all of your kids are under 5 making this a problem you have yet to encounter).
I don't think having 3 under 3 is easy but I wouldn't say that its always unmanageable. I understand that for some women it can be really challenging and I won't discredit that. I just want to point out that I was once in your place but I had it really hard (my DH works alot of hours and I have NO family EVER to go) and yes I survived.
There is a yiddish saying "kliene kinder kliene tzsoros, grosse kinder grosse tzsoros"
I am starting to understand what that means and my oldest is only 8 1/2. OY!!
While you think what you are doing is super are hard. I just laugh and say you must be pretty young and naive.
I never said 3 under 4 was unmanageable. In many ways, I think its much easier than spacing kids farther apart.
What was said numerous times in this thread was that Brooklyn is a concrete jungle and parks are just a vast wasteland of heat. You can't bring kids to the park etc etc etc. How are you possibly going to entertain them?
Well, I don't buy that. I went to a lovely park in Brooklyn with my kids. There was shade, water activities and a variety of activities for all ages. It takes work, but its possible.
There is also the boardwalk to walk on if you don't mind heading to the beach (its hot, but lots of fun for all ages).
There is plenty to do in Brooklyn besides for roasting on the concrete if a parent is willing to put in the time and effort. But most people don't want to and want to rely on tzedaka instead.
So the other day I went to Brooklyn to visit my MIL with the kids. Afterwards, I had a playdate with a friend and 3/4 of her kids.
We went to a park on Ave Y and Bedford. Beautiful shady park, great slides, climbing things, swings etc....and a sprinkler/spray park area. Plus, there were soccer fields, a track and handball courts. That park can satisfy kids of all ages.
If its far from you, make kids walk. That's part of the adventure. I make my 22 month old walk everywhere. Its good for him AND tires him out.
There is also Pier Six that my friend just told me about. (http://www.brooklynbridgeparknyc.org/the-park/pier-6-open) I've never been but she said its fantastic.
There is Marine Park. There is the local mall. Coney Island. There are plenty of free things to do. The subway and bus system are your friend, even if its tough to do. I can do it with 3 under 4, and if your kids are a bit older, it should be a bit easier.
I don't buy the Brooklyn argument.
Now I'm not going to respond about ME personally, but you understand that the reason many women are SAHMs because they have to STAY AT HOME and get their work done! Yes, running a house is work. Not everybody has 4 kids, many, especially lots of Brooklynites, have (super) large families. They need good, big suppers, tons of daily washing and folding laundry, cleaning the house, etc. Do you know that most Brooklyn and lots of NY suburban supermarkets accept phone orders? And do you know why? Because many SAHM have full day schedules and don't have the spare time to spend roaming grocery aisles.
All day park adventures with kids? Save that for chol hamoed when there's no school and the fathers are home to lend a hand. And if it would be fun to add a little twist to this thread, let me tell you, some chassidishe cheders offer "chol homoed cheder"!!!! It's a 3 hour program, everyday chol hamoed, with melamdim leading it. Everyday there's a program, ranging from wathing a play, going on a trip, watching the twins from France, presentations, and entertaining guest speakers. Why the need? Same reason. For large families, chol hamoed is super beehive busy, with all the cooking for the schooless kids and yom tov, so many mothers stay in even on chol hamoed. I remember my mother never joining us on our excursions.
Stay at home mom means not leaving the house? That's fine, then learn to deal with your kids in your home.
If you are talking about large families, kids are old enough to help out - either with chores or younger siblings. If the older siblings are out of the house in camp or other places (cheder or whatnot), then its less kids to deal with.
A trip to a neighborhood park should NOT be a big deal for a SAHM, unless she's dealing with special needs children. If it is, that's kind of sad. And if she has so much laundry that she can't handle taking care of her kids, or so much food to cook that she can't deal with her kids, then the situation needs to be evaluated. Because a parent should be able to deal with basic responsibilities no matter how many kids she has. [post partum, surgery etc non-withstanding]
So the other day I went to Brooklyn to visit my MIL with the kids. Afterwards, I had a playdate with a friend and 3/4 of her kids.
We went to a park on Ave Y and Bedford. Beautiful shady park, great slides, climbing things, swings etc....and a sprinkler/spray park area. Plus, there were soccer fields, a track and handball courts. That park can satisfy kids of all ages.
If its far from you, make kids walk. That's part of the adventure. I make my 22 month old walk everywhere. Its good for him AND tires him out.
There is also Pier Six that my friend just told me about. (http://www.brooklynbridgeparknyc.org/the-park/pier-6-open) I've never been but she said its fantastic.
There is Marine Park. There is the local mall. Coney Island. There are plenty of free things to do. The subway and bus system are your friend, even if its tough to do. I can do it with 3 under 4, and if your kids are a bit older, it should be a bit easier.
I don't buy the Brooklyn argument.
Let me understand saw50st8. Do you think that 3 under 4 is the hardest and its gets easier as they get older? Yes when they get older they different. You are not changing their diapers but they have different challenges. My first 3 were born within 3 years. When they were young I took them out all the time in brooklyn. I was so known at the Brooklyn Childrens Museum that till this day (5 years later) people still know me there. I even went there in labor with my 3rd kid, thats how much I liked getting out with my kids. But NOW I have 5 kids all born within 7 years and my oldest is 8 1/2 now (only a 6 months younger than Leiby A"H). Taking them to the park alone ALOT harder than when I had those 3 under 3. Taking them all out to the zoo is also ALOT harder than when I had 3 under 3. So NO it doesn't get physically easier unless you stop having kids. Also when we go to the museum now its even harder. There are very very few sections that can cater to all of my kids at the same time. I can only go there with another person OR only with one age group under or over the age of 5 (which all of your kids are under 5 making this a problem you have yet to encounter).
I don't think having 3 under 3 is easy but I wouldn't say that its always unmanageable. I understand that for some women it can be really challenging and I won't discredit that. I just want to point out that I was once in your place but I had it really hard (my DH works alot of hours and I have NO family EVER to go) and yes I survived.
There is a yiddish saying "kliene kinder kliene tzsoros, grosse kinder grosse tzsoros"
I am starting to understand what that means and my oldest is only 8 1/2. OY!!
While you think what you are doing is super are hard. I just laugh and say you must be pretty young and naive.
I never said 3 under 4 was unmanageable. In many ways, I think its much easier than spacing kids farther apart.
What was said numerous times in this thread was that Brooklyn is a concrete jungle and parks are just a vast wasteland of heat. You can't bring kids to the park etc etc etc. How are you possibly going to entertain them?
Well, I don't buy that. I went to a lovely park in Brooklyn with my kids. There was shade, water activities and a variety of activities for all ages. It takes work, but its possible.
There is also the boardwalk to walk on if you don't mind heading to the beach (its hot, but lots of fun for all ages).
There is plenty to do in Brooklyn besides for roasting on the concrete if a parent is willing to put in the time and effort. But most people don't want to and want to rely on tzedaka instead.
You just proved THAT YOU ARE NOT GETTING IT AND YOU ARE SUPER NAIVE.
I get it. Its impossible to take care of your kids when they get older so its super important to take tzedaka to send your kids to camp, especially in the vast concrete jungle of Brooklyn.
People who live with this mentality must lead such sad lives.
I get it. Its impossible to take care of your kids when they get older so its super important to take tzedaka to send your kids to camp, especially in the vast concrete jungle of Brooklyn.
I am not saying its impossible. Nothing is impossible.
I give birth without epidurals pitocin. Do you?
I have taken my kids out for the day to the park while in labor. Have you?
But I still wouldn't tell you that its wrong to be lazy to not be able to take care of your kids while in labor or to lazy to take an epidrual while in labor even though I can do it.
No one has the exact same life. You have little kids and family help and you think that you can compare that to everyone.
I have served my kids dinner and then taken a shower and then given birth in the room next door to them a few hours later. Then when they woke up in the morning I helped get them ready for school with my husband. Then made most of the call to prepare for a bris. A few weeks later I made pesach at my home. So believe me I am a super SAHM. I highly doubt you could accomplish what I have. Most people who meet me are amazed at what I have been able to do. I still don't doubt that if a mother who thinks she needs tzedaka to pay for camp then she must need it.
Lets not forget that poor Leiby A"H was NOT in NJ or Israel but in BROOKLYN. He was from a large family in a small 2 bedroom apt, hence why he was in camp. He was the second oldest to a family with 6 kids. Could what happened have happened any where else? I don't know. But I wonder if mothers in NJ or Israel are panicking as much as us mommies in brooklyn are. Scared to let our kids who last week we let walk to his friends around the corner. Scared to let our 8 year olds ride their bike around the block like we did last week. Scared to take too many kids to the park because you are not sure if you can truly watch them all.
This thread is/was about the necessity/luxury of sending away school age to day camp/sleep away camp..Agreed. Right? And if it is ethical to use tzedaka money for this cause. Right?
Ok, now. The answer to this starts first with checking out affiliations. Chassidish,Litvish, Cahbad, Yeshivish MO, and more. We answered based on chassidish. Right?
Ok, next. Then there's chassidish inner city and chassidish suburb. We discussed the difference of that too, right?
Ok, now. The inner city chassidish family that did not go to the country, had to send all her boys over age 10 to sleep away, there isn't an option there. Her yonger sons are in a cheder style day camp, not much of a choice there either. Right?
Are you following me till here?
So now the argument would be about the girls. For them, camp is optional. Now comes the million dollar question, whether for her, and her younger sister who would be attending a day camp, is it a necessity or not? And does tzedaka qualify?
Now that is tough. Because keeping girls home every single day in the summer, means providing entertainment every day of the summer, for 9 weeks straight-that's 63+ days! Which mother can do that? Take the kids to 63 outings? And do housework when? Have the older girls, assuming every single family has an older girl, entertain the younger ones for 63 days? Let me see you pull that off, convincing a teenager.
So here is where the challenge lies. And this is why we now have 80+ pages. There is no simple answer. And just because YOU were able, together with your MIL, ONE DAY, have a great day at the park, try 63 consecutive days. With sulking teens and kvetchy meidelech, and then get back to me to report.
So here is where the challenge lies. And this is why we now have 80+ pages. There is no simple answer. And just because YOU were able, together with your MIL, ONE DAY, have a great day at the park, try 63 consecutive days. With sulking teens and kvetchy meidelech, and then get back to me to report.
I get it. Its impossible to take care of your kids when they get older so its super important to take tzedaka to send your kids to camp, especially in the vast concrete jungle of Brooklyn.
I am not saying its impossible. Nothing is impossible.
I give birth without epidurals pitocin. Do you?
I have taken my kids out for the day to the park while in labor. Have you?
But I still wouldn't tell you that its wrong to be lazy to not be able to take care of your kids while in labor or to lazy to take an epidrual while in labor even though I can do it.
No one has the exact same life. You have little kids and family help and you think that you can compare that to everyone.
I have served my kids dinner and then taken a shower and then given birth in the room next door to them a few hours later. Then when they woke up in the morning I helped get them ready for school with my husband. Then made most of the call to prepare for a bris. A few weeks later I made pesach at my home. So believe me I am a super SAHM. I highly doubt you could accomplish what I have. Most people who meet me are amazed at what I have been able to do. I still don't doubt that if a mother who thinks she needs tzedaka to pay for camp then she must need it.
Lets not forget that poor Leiby A"H was NOT in NJ or Israel but in BROOKLYN. He was from a large family in a small 2 bedroom apt, hence why he was in camp. He was the second oldest to a family with 6 kids. Could what happened have happened any where else? I don't know. But I wonder if mothers in NJ or Israel are panicking as much as us mommies in brooklyn are. Scared to let our kids who last week we let walk to his friends around the corner. Scared to let our 8 year olds ride their bike around the block like we did last week. Scared to take too many kids to the park because you are not sure if you can truly watch them all.
Just because something is hard, doesn't mean we should perpetuate this notion of taking tzedaka because we want to.
Yes, I have given birth w/o epidurals. One w/ pitocin and no epidural. Yes, I have given birth in my home with my kids nearby. And I took my oldest to the beach when I thought I was in labor (turned out to be false). I made Shavuos for my family (7 adults, 6 kids) a few days after my due date (I hadn't given birth yet) while suffering through a terrible pregnancy. And I am NOT supermom.
I don't just trust a mother who says she needs tzedaka for camp because we have created societies where taking tzedaka for camp (and school) is no longer a big deal. "Everyone" is on scholarship. It doesn't force people to push passed their comfort zone and see that they CAN do it.
Just because something is hard, doesn't mean it isn't doable.
Oh and I didn't have help at the park. I watched my 3 kids while my friend watched her 3 kids. I went to Brooklyn to visit my MIL.
So now the argument would be about the girls. For them, camp is optional. Now comes the million dollar question, whether for her, and her younger sister who would be attending a day camp, is it a necessity or not? And does tzedaka qualify?
Now that is tough. Because keeping girls home every single day in the summer, means providing entertainment every day of the summer, for 9 weeks straight-that's 63+ days! Which mother can do that? Take the kids to 63 outings? And do housework when? Have the older girls, assuming every single family has an older girl, entertain the younger ones for 63 days? Let me see you pull that off, convincing a teenager.
So here is where the challenge lies. And this is why we now have 80+ pages. There is no simple answer. And just because YOU were able, together with your MIL, ONE DAY, have a great day at the park, try 63 consecutive days. With sulking teens and kvetchy meidelech, and then get back to me to report.
What's interesting is that when I've discussed this with people in real life (including parents of 7+ kids many close in age), they all loved when they had summers with all their kids home. And would often choose it, in large part because of the expense of camp.
Yes, a mother can entertain her kids for 63+ days. Difficult, yes. Tzedaka worthy for a SAHM with no special needs kids? Or special situation other than she chose to live in Brooklyn?
Its no wonder people don't prioritize money for Yeshiva tuition either. Why bother if you can get scholarships for camp just for choosing a tough place to live? Yeshiva is vastly more important.
And Tamiri, we have come full circle. My statements on page one are appropriate here.
"Make the kids walk" across Brooklyn. File that in the same place as "toddlers rip toilet paper for two hours" and "get into the car with kids and sandwiches and spend all day at the park."
Saw, can you scout around in my neighborhood for parks next? Let me know so I can advise you which blocks to avoid.
gryp, I make my 22 month old walk everywhere we go. I make my 3.5 year old walk. That includes when I've taken them to Manhattan and they had to walk long distances.
Where do you live? I'm not a Brooklyn expert. My friend is a SAHM in Brooklyn and knows all the parks.
