Listen, I posted a serious question and everyone's ignoring me.
I'm soooo insulted.
I thought I answered it. I had rachmanus on everyone falling off the page. Why? Do you think my previous post lacks poetry or intellectual substance????
When you've written as many boring articles about crock pots as I have, this is REAL fun, believe me! (You also have to get used to my very silly sense of humour!)
We must keep the thread going! I know...how do you feel about having so many trips in camp? Are they necessary? If camp is funded by tzedaka, should it be wading pools and simple arts and crafts?
My kids are doing a considerable number of trips. The principal claims neither he nor parents can occupy kids with simpler activities for ten minutes.
When I was in the tween division of a day camp, the director disabused us of the notion that there should be a trip every day. But now that same program is called Teen Travel, and there is a trip every day. A sign of our times?
Whenever something is called, "A sign of our times," it makes me feel old.
Anyway, I registered dd for camp and now a child I don't want her associating with has also registered. This other girl has bad middos and waaaay too much freedom for my taste. (Read: unlimited Internet access, no curfew, no limits that I see.) We're talking early teens here.
There is no other camp for my dd to go to and she's been looking forward to this all year.
Now what?
Must this girl sleep in the same room/bunk as your dd? Who is in charge of placing the girls, a director , camp mother? Make a call to them and explain the situation.
- How many girls are at this camp?
- How friendly is your dd with this other girl already?
- Is it possible to make a condition with your dd that she can only go if she doesn't ask to share this girl's room (which may mean that she'll find other girls to hang out with instead)?
- Does your dd know what you think of this other girl?
I totally should have put my lunch question here instead of starting its own thread.
So I'd like to repart what I'm going to make for CAMP (camp camp camp camp) this Sunday.
I think I'm going with mini shnitzel, which I'm going to fry and freeze today, either ptitim (Israeli couscous) or mashed potatoes and peas and carrots.
If you want to start a health food offtopic I will allow you to bash my menu.
- How friendly is your dd with this other girl already?
Aha. They're already friendly, and the other girl is quite charismatic and fascinating, with lots of available cash and gadgets.
shosh wrote:
- Is it possible to make a condition with your dd that she can only go if she doesn't ask to share this girl's room (which may mean that she'll find other girls to hang out with instead)?
I've already told her that she's going, without preconditions.
shosh wrote:
- Does your dd know what you think of this other girl?
She has a general idea. Guess I'll discuss it further.
Thanks, that was helpful in clarifying things in my mind.
kitov, thank you for your suggestion. I'm not sure I want to involve the camp at this point but if necessary I will.
Isramom8, thanks to you, too. It's a good point to remember, that we can't control everything.
I think some trips are a benefit, but also let's define "trips". When I went to daycamp there was either a lake onsite or we went twice a week to the local pool. (This was up to age 9 I think. At 9 I went to sleepaway for the first time, for 4 summers, or 4 half-summers as I only ever went for one month, I must have had daycamp the other month? Starting at 13 I spent my summers volunteering at the geriatric centre.) At the camp run in the ganim they have 2 trips to a pool in a neighbouring yishuv, and one big trip that I think is age-inappropriate due to distance, but DH signed the permission form without asking me first. DS#1's gan/camp (chinuch meyuchad) has no trips to the pool but they're going twice to the local gymboree.
What kind of trips do the little kids need exactly? And is camp the opportunity to provide trips that mom and dad don't have time to take the kids to, or should camp be doing activities that mom and dad CAN'T do?
Can I ask a really contravercial question?
(I guess if you're still reading this thread you're not afraid of contravercy.)
OK, so here goes:
How can anyone send away such young children for weeks and even months. I don't get it.
I know I didn't grow up with this, but this is something I could never grasp.
My parents grew up going to camp (Moshava) and I went for a summer as a madricha, the kids weren't even allowed to call him during their stay.
It's not only about missing your children, but I think young children and even teens need their parents, not only for guidance and supervision but also just to be there for them.
I'm all for a youth society, and in Israel we have sleepaway camps for a week or two geared towards teens (I'm not making this Israel vs. America this is just an example) and I can totally see myself sending my kids IY"H to something like that, it just that a month or six weeks, or even a whole summer is a LOOOONG time.
I know, my parents loved their camp experience, and I can hear from here to that most people enjoy it. I just don't get it. And I guess this is the right place to ask you guys for an explenation.
I think it's a few things. One is city vs. non-city living. Just like in some places we know that all the women and kids go to "the country" for the summer to get out of the city. So too, parents who don't have bungalow colonies or summer homes to go to still want their kids to have some non-city air filling their children's lungs. Other reasons might include a Jewish experience for people who live in small communities, or communities without a strong Orthodox presence. It might be about activities that are offered by the camps that the parents can't provide otherwise (I never did master waterskiing, but I LOVED canoeing...can't do that in the city). Or to broaden horizons ("not everyone is like us")... Most camps don't start until 9; somehow I don't think of that as "little" kids.
I think it's a few things. One is city vs. non-city living. Just like in some places we know that all the women and kids go to "the country" for the summer to get out of the city. So too, parents who don't have bungalow colonies or summer homes to go to still want their kids to have some non-city air filling their children's lungs. Other reasons might include a Jewish experience for people who live in small communities, or communities without a strong Orthodox presence. It might be about activities that are offered by the camps that the parents can't provide otherwise (I never did master waterskiing, but I LOVED canoeing...can't do that in the city). Or to broaden horizons ("not everyone is like us")... Most camps don't start until 9; somehow I don't think of that as "little" kids.
To me 9 is very little.
But I guess it's cultural. I can't imagine anyone I know (in Israel) sending a nine year old away for the summer.
I think most parents wouldn't consider it under 12 or even 14-5.
You should hear what people say about high school dorms where you come home every week.
I wonder if it's just because Israel is a smaller country and we are so used to have everything close by that going away for a long period of time is unfathomable (college too, in Israel even if you go to college in another city, you will usually come home at least every other weekend - and I'm talking general population here not just frum people).
I totally agree chanchy. 9 is very, very little. And what will he see/ hear when he's away from home? We worry enough about sending 14 year olds to 3 days of BY camp (regarding who is influencing them, not whether they can take care of themselves).
So, one minute - was it the same posters telling us how important it is to be a SAHM to be there for your children and how your children need you even when they're older, and then telling us how they must go to camp? Or maybe it's not the same posters?
I totally agree chanchy. 9 is very, very little. And what will he see/ hear when he's away from home? We worry enough about sending 14 year olds to 3 days of BY camp (regarding who is influencing them, not whether they can take care of themselves).
So, one minute - was it the same posters telling us how important it is to be a SAHM to be there for your children and how your children need you even when they're older, and then telling us how they must go to camp? Or maybe it's not the same posters?
Yes, it's the same posters. (Well, SOME of the same posters.)
I didn't mean to abandon this thread but yesterday I went to Brooklyn to a park/playdate with a sahm friend and in laws (true story lol). Ill be more verbose later
When I was growing up, I think kids (in fresh-air Monsey, yet!) started going in third or maybe fourth grade. I was sent once at age 10.5 and didn't feel too young at all. From the City, kids start going probably as young as when they are first graders.
So, one minute - was it the same posters telling us how important it is to be a SAHM to be there for your children and how your children need you even when they're older, and then telling us how they must go to camp? Or maybe it's not the same posters?
I sort of believe both (importance of SAHM-ing if possible, and benefits of camp).
I don't see any contradiction. Kids have different needs at different points in life. A couple can feel that their kids ages 0-5 need mom around all day, that the kids ages 5-8 need her around in the afternoon, and that the kids ages 9+ need a month to run around the woods with friends.
And different needs at different points of the year too... just because camp is great for a month, doesn't mean it's great year-round.
Trying to think of a comparison... I think it's sort of like an internship. For some university programs you start mostly in classes, then slowly add hours of a supervised internship where you put what you're learning into practice but with some oversight, then after doing that for a while you add hours of mostly-unsupervised internship where you're pretty much on your own, but you still meet with your advisor once in a while to say how things are going.
So here - kids start at home (class), then slowly spend more time in school, where they put their values into practice with some oversight (internship), and then as they get older it's good for them to also have some less-supervised time to practice what they're learning (and camp (of the out-in-the-woods variety, not the classroom kind) is good for that).
