Food in NON kosher restaurants

↑ PinkandYellow

Tue, May 15 2007, 3:15 am

Crayon210 wrote:

He tells a story of a man who used to drink coffee out at a particular non-kosher place, but the man said it's just coffee and milk, no big deal...

Then one day he was talking to the owner and asked how do you get your coffee drinks to taste so good, he answered I flavor them with parts of a pig. shock

these days there are a lot of laws re food, what can adn can't be put in and used. the thing with cut up fruit or fruit juice being ok, is that legally they can't use the same knife for fruit/veg as for other things. it is the same ruling that gives ppl leniency not to eat cholov yisroel. I think it also makes coffee ok anywhere (not cy of course).

↑ amother

Tue, May 15 2007, 3:59 am

I didn't read the entire thread, but here's what I do: Bc of maris ayin, DH and I would not go into a treif restaurant even to use a bathroom or get a drink to go. (Unless there were extreme circumstances.) But we both have non-religious and non-Jewish family, and when there are no kosher restaurants around and we visit them once a year we will join them while they eat out. If we order at all, we will only order drinks that we are SURE about: bottled water, soda still in the can. DH will wear a baseball hat instead of a kippa and tuck his tzitzis in. (We both HATE when he does this, but we feel it is better than maris ayin.) And just to note, the entire time that we're in a non-kosher restaurant we're extrememly uncomfortable.

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Tue, May 15 2007, 10:52 am

MosheDovid'sMom wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

I hope no one thought I was quoting this as a psak halacha.

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Tue, May 15 2007, 11:02 am

Quote:

But we both have non-religious and non-Jewish family, and when there are no kosher restaurants around and we visit them once a year we will join them while they eat out. If we order at all, we will only order drinks that we are SURE about: bottled water, soda still in the can. DH will wear a baseball hat instead of a kippa and tuck his tzitzis in. (We both HATE when he does this, but we feel it is better than maris ayin.) And just to note, the entire time that we're in a non-kosher restaurant we're extrememly uncomfortable.

Did you ask a shaila about this, just out of curiosity? Or do you do this to avoid family issues?

↑ Marion ↓

Tue, May 15 2007, 12:07 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

Quote:

I don't understand what he disagreed with. The restaurant owners? Don't they get a say?

Crayon, your understanding of the issue doesn't matter; this is what Marion's Rav said. She's got to follow is line of reasoning, not mine, and not even my Ravs.

I didn't say it matters. I was just curious.

He disagreed with TzenaRena's statement that the owners don't mind because part of their cheshbon is that people will use the facility but not buy anything.

↑ TzenaRena ↓

Tue, May 15 2007, 12:23 pm

Marion wrote:

TzenaRena wrote:

Quote:

And for those who ask why you can't just use the restroom, my husband was once given a psak that using the facilities of a restaurant without paying for (at least) a drink, was stealing from the owners because they still have to pay the utility bills, and the cleaning staff.

They don't mind people using it without asking. Their cheshbon is that it's paying for itself by bringing more customers.

DH's Rav disagreed with you. I'll take the psak we got, thanks.

↑ TzenaRena

Tue, May 15 2007, 12:24 pm

For someone as scrupulously honest as you are, (to the point that it is preferable to enter a treif restaurant and buy something sealed rather than possibly "cheating" the owner by using the bathroom unpaid), you should have pasted my entire post, instead of taking one line out of context, implying that I was "issuing a psak" against a (your) Rav's, when of course I was not, and was just following a certain line of reasoning, JMHOor NSHO.

I'll quote it myself, thank you.

TzenaRena wrote:

Quote:

Maybe if the restroom is a small private one inside the restaurant, that makes sense, but it's quite the norm that travelers stop by all the time to use the restroom on any major routes. Often, the traveler will step into the store to buy something, but it's clearly not obligated or expected, otherwise they would have built the restroom in a part of the restaurant that you'd have to go through it to get there.

They don't mind people using it without asking. Their cheshbon is that it's paying for itself by bringing more customers.

As far as your psak from your Rav, clearly you are beholden to follow it. however, the rest of us can discuss how it might or might not apply in anyone else's life, or different circumstances, or whether their own Rav might say the same thing or something different, or even why your Rav might have paskened what he did. (the latter is what I was doing).

I've noticed in the b/c heter thread, advice given by posters for the OP to actually go ask another rav for a heter - the same shailoh she asked her own rav- if their rav didn't give her the heter she wanted.

Just curious if you saw anything wrong with that, or were in agreement with some other posters that the OP had no need to follow her Rav's psak, if she could find a different Rav more lenient/understanding/compassionate/mentschlich/reasonable than her own Rav.

Motek ↓

Thu, May 17 2007, 11:39 am

Ima2Netanel wrote:

(I think it may have been Haskal Lookstein), but DH knows of him and said he is a prominet educator in the frum world.

He is a principal in a co-ed, MO day school.

Quote:

a) we could ask for them to set aside a seperate set of good dishes for us

treife dishes?

Quote:

b) that bread was ok to eat, since they cooked it in a seperate kitchen away from all other food

pas akum?

Quote:

c) that salad was ok to eat.

insects? what knife was used to cut veg?

healthymama wrote:

I know people who would order a bowl of uncut straweberries or cherry tomatoes at a treif restaraunt.

strawberries have an infestation problem

↑ Marion ↓

Thu, May 17 2007, 1:07 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

Quote:

I was just quoting the part that I was addressing (which I think is pretty standard practice).

I'm also not sure what the point is of bringing a very controversial subject (BC) into a thread about what one can or can't buy and where. I'll PM you my take on the subject, however.

↑ HindaRochel ↓

Thu, May 17 2007, 1:17 pm

Marion, your Rav's psak is very interesting to me. It isn't how I hold, but it is intriguing. I have a question, but I don't know if you went into this much detail with your Rav. What if you couldn't purchase anything from the restaurant? ie, there wasn't anything acceptable, maybe it was during Pesach or whatever. Would you need to leave some small amount of money, as if you were purchasing something? It might not have ever happened, and you might not know the answer. I realize it would be pretty rare for this to occur, but I was pondering his psak and was wondering.

thanks,

↑ Marion ↓

Thu, May 17 2007, 1:46 pm

We never dealt with that issue, so I can't tell you. I *imagine* that yes, if the point is not to steal financially from the owner, it would be acceptable to pay for the use of the facilities themselves, whatever charge the owner thought reasonable. And, in that case, if the owner told me it wasn't necessary, then I probably could get away without paying. But, we didn't cover that in the discussion with the Rav, so I can't say for sure that we would get exactly that answer from him.

JRKmommy ↓

Thu, May 17 2007, 2:11 pm

Marion - did your rav ever address the specific issue of the service centres on Hwy 401?

My logic with those restrooms in particular would be as follows:

1. The service centres include gas, fast food and washrooms. Purchasing gas should also count as making one a "customer".

2. The service centres existed in their present locations prior to the fast foods chains operating in them. They are the only locations permitted to have direct access from the freeway. There is considerable benefit to this access: the service centres receive FAR more traffic than gas stations and/or fast food places located off the highway. Part of the bargain in having this special direct access from a public freeway is that certain facilities are provided to the public - including a public washroom.

3. The very existance of the public washrooms makes the service centre more economically attractive. Inevitably, during the drive from Toronto to Montreal, almost everyone will need to stop at least once. The service centres offer the most convenient way of getting to a public restroom. The generate traffic for the service centre. Many people run in without actively thinking about buying anything - but subsequently decide to buy "something". The public washrooms end up generating far more business than a restrictive "customers only" policy would.

↑ Marion

Thu, May 17 2007, 2:54 pm

JRKmommy wrote:

Since the Rav in question has never (to the best of my knowledge) been to Canada, his psak can't be understood to SPECIFICALLY refer to the 401 rest-stops. However, they are also not specifically excluded. I would imagine that a fuel purchase would also make one a customer, but the original question didn't make that an option, and asked only about food. (Yes, I realize that I made it a potential issue when I mentioned the Trans-Canada in a previous post.)