Million Man Atzeres

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Million Man Atzeres

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↑ curlgirl ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 5:59 am

RutiS wrote:

also, to you is the army upholding the world? more than torah? answer me as a frum jew, do u think Hashem is limited and we wont survive iran or iraq if charedim dont enlist. do u think that we neec to uproot the torah learning so that there should be more soldiers?
what do u believe the quote 'al shlosha dvarim' means

I think Hashem wants us to plan according to derech hateva and to train the soldiers we'll need according to that, not to rely on miracles.

Do you work one hour a day and expect that Hashem (who is unlimited) will support your family from that, or do you work as many hours as you need to realistically support your family bederech hateva?

What has happened to the concept of hishtadlut?

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:01 am

curlgirl wrote:

RutiS, it sounds as though you have not been taught about Hishtadlus, a very basic tenet of Jewish faith and something Hashem expects from all of us, as much as possible while keeping the Torah and mitzvot.

So just like some men need to take time off Torah learning to earn a living for their family, so must as many men as needed take time off Torah learning to defend our country, whether you see it as a secular country you happen to be living in or as a gift from Hashem, a Jewish country in our own land.

Are you a BT?

This is a big part of the issue. There are plenty of men who are NOT learning Torah full time -- and the army is not short of manpower. So it is not that these specific learners are needed in order to protect the country. If they were it would be a different question. As of know it is just a matter of "making things fair", which is a very different issue. As I said earlier, halavai the problem would be that so many people want to learn full time that there are not enough other people for the hishtadlus. But assuming you agree that we need BOTH physical hishtadlus and the protective power of Limud Hatorah, the full time learners are doing a tremendous service to our country as well. (Of course if you don't agree with the premise that Torah protects, you will not accept this concept -- but I am working on the assumption that you are just asking about hishtadlus vs. bitachon, not denying the spiritual role altogether.)

↑ Roots ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:03 am

m in israel basically said my answer.
We do the spiritual hishtadlut, the army who has ebough manpowe is doing th e phusical hishtadlus, together we have it all.
im not a BT btw

↑ Sanguine ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:04 am

chaiz wrote:

amother wrote:

Quote:

"BTW, men don't have to close their gemara in the army, and you know it."

My husband's chavrusa was in the army. He got wounded and was unable to fight. He so badly wanted to go learn but the army still said they "needed him" although he was obviously not doing much for them. One day he was learning, he had his gemarra opened. His commander came over to him and told him to close it because "I'd rather have you sit and do nothing than learn"

.Do you really expect us to believe your story just like that, especially when it is said anonymously? Really, do you think we just believe everything we are told?

LOL - Love the story. LOL

The army is extremely respectful of datiim as long as they're not taking advantage. There can be people there who are anti-dati, but that can be anywhere. There can be dati people who are anti chilonim. The army is the best place for Achdut in Am Yisrael. We're all on the same side because we're all Jews.

↑ Roots ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:08 am

haha so religious men forced to listen to women sing is called respect for datiim?

the army is not a 'clean' place and you know it

Last edited by Roots on Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:10 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ chaiz ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:09 am

Sanguine wrote:

LOL - Love the story. LOL

Do you believe it really happened? (Not sure how to do the double quote)

↑ curlgirl ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:10 am

I am saying that we do need the army, Hashem expects us to have an army and values those serving in it as much as those learning Torah.

I find posts like RutiS's parroted-sounding and disturbing. And smug and self-righteous. And...

And please show me Chareidim who see the holiness in and the necessity of the Israeli army, and are willing to either serve in fighting/ defending or in Torah learning according to their strengths and what is needed, and I will have nothing to argue on this thread.

But no, they say the army doesn't need them (total cop-out, please prove it, if you're dedicated and good they need you more than many others). They say they are doing more by learning (would Hashem agree? Someone needs to do hishtadlut here). And all-in-all I get the feeling that they don't want to be the ones to risk their lives or get their hands dirty.

And then they pat themselves on the back and say the army isn't necessary anyway, *they* are chayalim in Hashem's army! We are just chayalim in the Israeli army, nowhere near their madreiga.

I can't begin to value the guy sitting in yeshiva as much as the one patrolling the Gaza border, and if that guy in Yeshiva doesn't feel that way too, there's a major problem with values, priorites and modesty and hakaras hatov in this nation.

↑ chaiz ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:11 am

RutiS wrote:

haha so religious men forced to listen to women sing is called respect for datiim?

So that is the biggest issue with the army? That cannot be dealt with other than the screaming and hollering that has been going on?

↑ curlgirl ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:13 am

RutiS wrote:

m in israel basically said my answer.
We do the spiritual hishtadlut, the army who has ebough manpowe is doing th e phusical hishtadlus, together we have it all.
im not a BT btw

Mmmm no, don't piggy-back on other peoples' posts.

*You* wrote that we don't really need the army.

↑ Marion ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:16 am

amother wrote:

But why are Israeli Arabs exempt?? They are Israeli citizens and they should be obligated as well.. and the argument that they might not be loyal is not an argument. If you are a citizen then you have obligations.. but it seems that this argument is only used when it comes to Chareidim .. That is discriminatory and in violation of the freedom to worship as they please.. that is essential in a democratic country.

Who says I agree that Israeli Arabs should be exempt? One problem at a time.

↑ cinnamon ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:17 am

Sanguine wrote:

LOL - Love the story. LOL

It's hard to say that the army is respectful of datiim...

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles......html
http://news.nana10.co.il/Artic.....92178
http://www.kipa.co.il/jew/32567.html

↑ Roots

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:22 am

but curl gurl thats not the point I was trying to bring out.The army is important to us as I said we daven for the soldiers every day, and I am proud to say that I have many family and friends serving the idf.
the point here is the value of torah learning and how to the secular israeli thats not worth a cent. to us its the existence of the world.
second point, there are many charedim serving the idf but people seem not to notice that because they dont want charedim serving the army, they want us to mainstream to the isreali societiy and give up the traditions we hold dear.
what I meant about war, I didnt saywe dont belive in hishtadlut, firstly I mentioned my strong belief in spiritual hishtadlut, second there are many religious soldiers in the army, and thirdlly, yeah I do strongly believe Hashem is unlimited and we can win over any army just like in nes chanuka.

and being the machloket on what is a milchemet rishut and all that, I believe what the poskei hador say and if they feel that now we need to fight for the torah thats what I do.
im happy to be called a parrot if parroting means listening to poskei hador
and I really was not trying to bash anyone just show how strongly I believe in koach haTORAH.

↑ shevi82 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:23 am

The point is not the exact wording of the law, or if working or full time learning is the right way to live.
The point is that Lapid, Bennet and co. have passed a law in Jewish Knesset that anyone who is learning torah and not going to the army is a criminal.
Do you think they passed this law for the guy who went to the beach instead of the army?!
They want to destroy Torah, period.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:23 am

Sanguine wrote:

This is a lie.
I have heard first hand of experiences of dati chayalim who were ordered to break Shabbos. Work on chol hamoed (in work which could have easily been done before or after). Once you are in the army, if someone above you tells you it's pikuach nefesh (however he chooses to define that), you will have to go to jail if you don't listen to him. And many young boys of 18-19 do not have that strength.

↑ curlgirl ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:23 am

Sanguine wrote:

We're all on the same side because we're all Jews.

Not true. Weren't you around for the Expulsion from Gush Katif?

I certainly wish this country and the army were different in many ways.

I certainly have my wariness of them, as a religious person and as a settler.

↑ Marion ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:26 am

milkshake wrote:

No it's because they are dodging the draft TO LEARN TORAH. How long are you living in this country for? Do you really not understand the dynamics involved??

No, it's because they're dodging the draft. The army doesn't care who you are...dodge the draft you go to jail. Show up for your tzav rishon and the army decides they don't want you? Get a p'tor and never worry about closing your gemara again.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:26 am

shalhevet wrote:

Seriously, do you believe in the Torah? I don't have time to start quoting you pesukim and gemorras, but it is written in many, many places that 1. Jewish men have a chiyuv to learn Torah all the time (when possible for them) (start with the Shema) and 2. that learning Torah protects Am Yisroel.

It's not a secret that most (all?) dati leumi rabbis believe that most Jewish men have a chiyuv to enlist in the army. Why would people who follow that derech have "hakarat hatov" for people doing something we believe is less than halachically ideal? Like, if I decided that I'm going to ask my husband to stay home from minyan so I can go daven in shul instead, would you have hakarat hatov for my prayers?

Again, distinguishing between "Torah learning" and "Torah learning instead of army service."

Quote:

Your post is sick and does not belong on a frum site. I have never, in my life, by the way, heard a frum Jew of any shape or form who does not have hakoras hatov to the soldiers in the IDF.

Leaving aside the extremists who've attacked hareidi soldiers...

How are we defining "hakarat hatov," here?

I would say (as I did above) that it means appreciating what the other person is doing as it is, not just "it's nice that you're doing that, but you should really be doing something else."

So for example, I'd say that if someone says "it's nice that hareidi men learn Torah, but most of them should either enlist in the army or go get a job," that's not real hakarat hatov.

Similarly, if someone says, "it's nice that so many Israeli men are in the IDF, but there's really no need for it, if they'd all sit and learn Torah we wouldn't need an army at all" - I wouldn't call that hakarat hatov, either.

↑ shevi82

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:29 am

Marion wrote:

The army doesn't care but the CHavrei Knesset who were behind this law care.
They passed the law to bash the lomdei Torah. The admit it, read their facebook posts.

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:29 am

curlgirl wrote:

But no, they say the army doesn't need them (total cop-out, please prove it, if you're dedicated and good they need you more than many others). They say they are doing more by learning (would Hashem agree? Someone needs to do hishtadlut here). And all-in-all I get the feeling that they don't want to be the ones to risk their lives or get their hands dirty.

And then they pat themselves on the back and say the army isn't necessary anyway, *they* are chayalim in Hashem's army! We are just chayalim in the Israeli army, nowhere near their madreiga.

I can't begin to value the guy sitting in yeshiva as much as the one patrolling the Gaza border, and if that guy in Yeshiva doesn't feel that way too, there's a major problem with values, priorites and modesty and hakaras hatov in this nation.

First of all, the army DOESN'T need them, in the sense that the percentage of people willing to sit and learn full time, even when Tal was in full effect was much less than those willing to go to the army. So assuming you agree that we need BOTH hishtadlus and the Koach of Limud Hatorah, then it makes sense to allow it to be self selecting -- those who are ready and willing to protect us through Torah can do that, and those who either can't/ won't learn, or those follow those poskim who hold that protecting Israel today is a milchemes mitzva will do the hishtadlus part. As Sanguine and I both pointed out (despite being on opposing ends of this ideologically), there were many DL individuals who learned intensely for many years under Tal as well as the Chareidim.

As far as the "they don't want to risk their lives" line goes, you are aware, I hope, that all combat and elite units in the IDF are VOLUNTEER. No one risks their lives unless they sign up for it (and we owe tremendous Hakaras Hatov to those brave volunteers who do sign up for that.) But the overall draft issue is not one of risking your life vs. not risking your life. The vast majority of soldiers are working in non-combat units. We need them, too -- just as we need the Lomdei Torah -- but to say that all of those drafted are risking their lives while those learning Torah get to "sit in the air conditioned Beis Medrash and learn" is just parroting the same divisive cliches we hear from the anti-frum media.

And I find it interesting that you are deciding whose service you "value more", and claiming that anyone who doesn't share your valuation has a major problem. Avrohom Avinu determined after the war of the 4 kings/ 5 kings that those who stayed behind with the supplies were entitled to equal share of the spoils of war as those who "risked their lives fighting". An army needs ALL of its parts. I have tremendous appreciation for those guarding the Gaza border -- but I also appreciate those learning Torah and protecting us that way.

↑ chaiz ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:31 am

shalhevet wrote:

This is a lie.
Work on chol hamoed (in work which could have easily been done before or after).

How are you to decide what can or cannot be done on Chol Hamoed? And I have news for you: there are many many frum people who work on Chol Hamoed. Do you go to the pizza store on Chol Hamoed Sukkos? Do go on tiyulim on Chol Hamoed? Do ride the bus on Chol Hamoed? I am not saying one should go to work on Chol Hamoed, but to bring that into the equation is a bit silly and you just lose credibility.

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