Is this normal for BY high school

amother

Molasses ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 12:08 pm

OP, this is absolutely not normal behavior and most certainly an abuse of power, violation of dignity, and all those other things. AND, unfortunately it has become the norm in a large number of BY schools that I’m familiar with. I graduated high school a decade ago and this stuff makes my blood boil. They scream tznius tznius tznius, your body is kadosh, remains covered, not for all to to see, etc- EXCEPT when the esteemed mechanechet demands otherwise!! Bow at her whim and do as she says. It is unhealthy and not a portrayal of Torah values. On behalf of those of us who did not have anyone to validate us while we were experiencing this as teens, thank you for being a support for your daughter and teaching her a healthy perspective on self-respect.

amother

Mimosa

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 12:12 pm

If a girl is wearing ankle socks and the teacher sees skin, she can come over and say "Our dress code requires knee socks. The penalty for wearing ankle socks is X" and administer it. If the girl wants to defend herself, she can choose to lift her skirt to show that her socks go past her ankle.

BUT to guess that the girl is wearing ankle socks without having seen the skin and to make the girl demonstrate is gross and undignified. The goal is to cover the leg and the girl has presumably accomplished that (given that the teacher hasn't seen her leg). To make her violate that rule of covering the leg seems weirdly counterproductive and teaches her that she doesn't really need to cover her leg anyway.

amother

↑ OP

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 12:16 pm

imanotmommy wrote:

If the girl was wearing knee socks, then there would be no skin revealed at all. And if she isn't, she could admit that without showing it. (If the teacher then said, I want you to show me anyway, that would be weird.)

Ankle socks end at the ankle. Halfway up sounds like crew socks

This is my exact issue. The girl's skin was not revealed, her legs were, to all intents and purposes, covered. Why make her lift her skirt to prove otherwise? Yes, possibly it was crew socks, but if her legs looked covered, there is absolutely no way to make her lift her skirt.
If girls are programmed to listen to what adults demand, even when the adult demands them to move items of clothing, then where does it stop? Unfortunately, there have been cases of teachers abusing their powers and doing inappropriate things to children, in the frum system as well as elsewhere. In a society in which we expect our children to have reverence for authority figures, lines of appropriateness can be blurred. I am in no way saying that this mecheneches was going to do something inappropriate, not at all, but I am saying once a child is accustomed to doing things that makes them uncomfortable because an adult in authority has demanded it, then lines are blurred.

amother

Firethorn

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 12:19 pm

For those who think OP is overreacting, consider the following scenario:

School rule is tights only. (Never mind that at a teachers meeting someone asked who's not wearing knee highs & only 1 person raised her hand... that's another story).

Is a teacher justified in asking a girl to prove that she'a not wearing knee socks?

You may say that asking a girl to expose her upper shin or knee is different than the lower leg. To me it doesn't feel that different. If I choose to wear a long skirt, that's what I chose to cover.

I'm voting with OP.

I'd probably take it up with the principal. But I must admit that I have a bad habit of shooting my mouth off...

amother

Clover ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 12:22 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

Everyone's overreacting. To see if a girl is wearing ankle or knee socks, she doesn't have to 'expose' anything! She's not being asked to lift her skirt above her knee, which yes, would be a problem, but no-one's asking her to do that.
Validate her, but don't enable her by making issues out of tissues.
And no girl will go OTD from this.

amother

Cadetblue ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 12:27 pm

I haven’t read every post but here’s my gut feeling: (and yes I have/had/will have daughters in BY high school and went thru BY system)

OP, your daughter’s friend is a rule breaker. For rule breakers, there are consequences. If a person is speeding and gets pulled over, the police can look further and give more tickets for more violations. That’s how it works. Your daughter’s friend knew that she wasn’t following the rules. So she was lucky until now. And lifting up her skirt? All she had to do was probably pick up the hem a little bit, which was even considered ok in Victorian times.

amother

PlumPink

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 12:35 pm

amother Clover wrote:

As a teenager I would be totally mortified if a teacher would do this to me. This is complete hypocrisy - lifting someones skirt to check their Tznius? How unTzniusdik!! I'm sure plenty of teenagers have been hurt and we don't know how deeply from actions like this.

amother

↑ Clover ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 12:38 pm

amother PlumPink wrote:

Keep it in context. She's not being asked to lift her skirt above her knees. You conveniently read only what you wanted in my post. OTD from lifting her skirt a little BELOW her knees?

amother

↑ Molasses

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 12:47 pm

amother Clover wrote:

Why does someone have to go OTD in order for it to be considered unacceptable? Why isn’t it enough that somebody’s privacy was invaded by someone who preaches the contrary?

amother

↑ Clover

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 3:12 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

Why does someone have to go OTD in order for it to be considered unacceptable? Why isn’t it enough that somebody’s privacy was invaded by someone who preaches the contrary?

Chill.

amother

↑ Cadetblue

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 3:23 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

Why does someone have to go OTD in order for it to be considered unacceptable? Why isn’t it enough that somebody’s privacy was invaded by someone who preaches the contrary?

Whose privacy was invaded? No one here knows what happened. Not even OP. She heard from her daughter who may or may not have been telling the whole story. And the girl who got in trouble was BREAKING THE RULES. And her parents chose to send her to that school and they know what the rules are. There are three sides to every story-the mechaneches, the girl, and the truth. OP only knows one part of one side.