Is this normal for BY high school

amother

Lawngreen

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 9:56 am

No skin had to be exposed. The girl just had to lift her skirt to the point where the skirt met the top of the socks.

That's all.

I think you are overreacting.

amother

Mintcream ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:00 am

amother Jetblack wrote:

I think you're overreacting. IMHO. It's all below the knee.

Imo, it's not about revealing the body part. Is the act of being asked to do something demeaning. Like OP said, it's an abuse of power. It's an accusatory message asked to do an uncomfortable act by someone in power without justification. If there was true justification, I.e. seen her legs as she ran up the stairs or bent over to pick something up, she could have said as much. If the girl then denies it, then you have a case to ask her to prove it. But in this scenario, it leaves a very unpleasant aftereffect in the kid.

If you're in chinuch, you need to think before you do. Chinuch isn't just about policing. It's about giving out kids tools for their future while highlighting the beauty of our lives. If you are just there to police and beat the kids down, please find another job.

amother

↑ Taupe ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:02 am

amother Mintcream wrote:

A high school girl is old enough to understand if you blatantly break a rule expect a consequence. And if the consequence is checking if you broke it, then you got off lucky. You don’t blatantly and disrespectfully break rules and then cry victim.

amother

↑ Mintcream ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:04 am

amother Taupe wrote:

It was sufficient to call her out for the writing on her socks and apply the consequence to that act. No reason to take it further, unless you're looking to add more fuel to the fire.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:06 am

amother Mintcream wrote:

Thank you for validating and understanding.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:06 am

amother Mintcream wrote:

It was sufficient to call her out for the writing on her socks and apply the consequence to that act. No reason to take it further, unless you're looking to add more fuel to the fire.

Thank you for validating and understanding.

amother

↑ Aster

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:07 am

amother Taupe wrote:

For other rules, 100%. (Coming late to class, being rude to teachers etc)

I'm not saying she shouldn't tell the girl off about the words on her socks, and she can even ask about the length of the socks. But do it with sensitivity. Maybe in private? Ask the girl after class? I obviosuly don't know the details but from OP it sounds like all the other girls heard.

amother

↑ Taupe

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:10 am

amother Aster wrote:

For dumb rules like socks they are so not worth breaking ever. It’s just about disrespecting the school and saying show me what you will do if I disrespect you to your face.

amother

↑ Mintcream ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:11 am

amother Aster wrote:

Or be smart about. If this is a strict rule, keep some extra socks in the office. When someone breaks the rule, just call them into the office to change. It will quickly help keep the kids in line while not demeaning them.

(If a kid is a repeat offender, doing it intentionally, then there are larger problems in play here.)

↑ Chayalle ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:11 am

amother OP wrote:

Also, what if that was the girl's only clean pair of socks? Maybe just speak to her and remind her of the no writing policy without going further about length of socks, which, to me, was not an issue, as her legs were ostensibly covered.

"only clean pair of socks" IMVHO is an excuse every teen would use to break the school rule if it would work.

However I think if the girl's legs were sufficiently covered that she was appearing tznius and the teacher couldn't see if she was wearing shorter socks or not, she should be given the benefit of the doubt and not asked to lift her skirt. IMVHO (I see people disagree with me but I'll stand by my opinion) it's creepy for an adult to tell a student to lift her skirt, and it shouldn't be done.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:14 am

Chayalle wrote:

Thank you for validating and understanding.

amother

↑ Mintcream

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:17 am

amother Taupe wrote:

For dumb rules like socks they are so not worth breaking ever. It’s just about disrespecting the school and saying show me what you will do if I disrespect you to your face.

And sometimes it's a kid letting off steam here and there. These are teenagers, no less. No reason to overreact. Making it into a big deal is what continues to feed such behavior. Just be matter of fact about it, and handle it in a smart way. Asking someone to lift their skirt, or checking them further, speaks to the principal taking it personally. If you're in charge of teen girls, you need to have thick skin and be the adult in the picture.

Also, our kids absorb so much from their environment. They can learn a lot from a principal who manages to discipline while maintaining the kids dignity. But when treated as such, they walk away with negativity. That leads back to my earlier question- what's the goal here? Is it just about policing, or do we want to be mechanech the kid?

amother

Chestnut ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:22 am

Imo we need to separate dress code and tznius.
If the school dress code is tights, is a certain sweater, is certain color shoes, the school can penalize students who break the rules.
How they go about investigating is a different story.

But honestly usually girls wearing ankle socks think no one sees but the school sees skin when she goes up the stairs.
Would we be ok with a school giving a girl s penalty for ankle socks without giving her the opportunity to prove she's not in violation?

↑ Chayalle ↓

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:30 am

amother Taupe wrote:

For dumb rules like socks they are so not worth breaking ever. It’s just about disrespecting the school and saying show me what you will do if I disrespect you to your face.

I respectfully disagree. I wore socks against the school rule in high school all the time, back in the day. I was a pretty good student and a rule follower in other areas, and I had plenty of respect for my teachers and principal, I behaved overall in class..... Wearing socks was just one comfort point for me as a teen, and it was where I broke the rule.
Guess with my girls the apples don't fall far from the tree....BH their school does not make a big deal about knee socks if the girls are covered and tznius. What you don't see, you don't have to check for.

↑ Chayalle

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:33 am

amother Chestnut wrote:

You can ask her - are you wearing ankle socks? If she says no, let her go.
BTW they don't think no one sees them. They just want to wear the socks, that's all. It's comfortable for them, for whatever reason, or feels more cool, or whatever reason teens do all sorts of things. "everyone's doing it"

amother

↑ Chestnut

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:37 am

Chayalle wrote:

You know the parenting rule "never ask your kids to lie".
I feel it's the same.
If I as a teacher see or know that a girl is wearing ankle socks against school rules, most parenting experts would tell me not to ask because it would just incentivize them to lie.
I would just give the penalty (if it's important to the school). I wouldn't ask the student to prove.
But then also the teacher/school risks the complaints that they're just giving consequences without giving the girls an opportunity to defend themselves.

amother

Blush

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 10:54 am

I hate posts like this. It is an abuse of power but the teacher sees a child not following rules and assumes more rules are being followed. Buy your kid dark knee socks and then she won't feel the need to write on them and she will be wearing knee socks. I personally wear black knee socks year round with long skirts. Not skirts to the ankle necessarily. Being a teen/preteen is hard but parents should help their kids follow the school rules. You can empathize without putting down authority.

notshanarishona

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 11:43 am

Theoretically it should be obvious if a kid isn’t wearing knee socks but I don’t think it’s a major deal for someone to see someone’s lower leg. I think the panic is a little overblown.

imanotmommy

Thu, Nov 28 2024, 11:59 am

amother OP wrote:

Arms (below the elbow in a community that holds that lower arms can be uncovered) and hands, no.
People hold differently as to what constitutes shok, so asking a child to even reveal a tiny bit of skin on a part of the body that some hold is shok is a problem for some. Cheating situation seems slightly different to me. Child is glancing at arm. Teacher has suspicions, fair enough. For a child whose legs are covered, making her uncover them seems a bit odd.

If the girl was wearing knee socks, then there would be no skin revealed at all. And if she isn't, she could admit that without showing it. (If the teacher then said, I want you to show me anyway, that would be weird.)

Ankle socks end at the ankle. Halfway up sounds like crew socks