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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children
Would you treat this like chutzpah?
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  Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 19 2024, 9:44 am
amother OP wrote:
To clarify, I am not rigid at all. The mail on the dining table is just where it goes because that's where it's always gone, so generally when anyone brings in the mail, that's just where it goes. When I told him to pick it up after dumping it on the floor, it's likely my exact words were "pick it up now and put it on the table" NOT because I particularly care that they davka go on the table but because that's just where they go and that was me emphasizing to pick them up and put them where they belong (which is, of course, not the floor). What I really care about is that he gathered it up and put it somewhere reasonable. It was the provider who noticed the "discrepancy" that he put it on the counter and not the table and said that was chutzpadik. It's possible he did that to needle me, I won't discount that. This behavior is not common for him, but it's not never either. Again, he has a very important day today, and I could reasonably see it as coming from that.


Serious breach of boundaries on the part of the provider.

Sounds like a no-big-deal-really type of thing. OK so he did it in a way that works for him - brains saying he needs to do this, emotions saying he needs to assert himself. He's a teen, which by definition means he's a work in progress, and also has a need to assert himself a little, which is normal for his development and shows he's on the way to being an independent adult (when, hopefully, his emotions and brains will fuse to work together.....)

And you sound like a great mother - you have that balance of setting boundaries with room for space.

Mountain out of a molehill, by someone who should've MHOB.
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amother
Linen  


 

Post Tue, Nov 19 2024, 9:50 am
Op it sounds like you handled it very well and he followed through and picked it bavk up. Only thing I would have done differently is I would have been close by and after he picked it up stuck out my hand and asked for it. And I would say 'thank you' . By taking it you are avoiding his next step of throwing it in the wrong place which was bound to happen at this point. If this interaction was preformed calmly kudos to you
Only thing wrong here is the "professional " who was not hired to work with this child and was totally out of line for getting involved and offering opinion. Should have acting like nothing going on.
Maybe I didn't read whole thread clearly but if you consider it chutzpah (which it is as is age appropriate) what would you do different? Besides stay calm and have child pick it up?
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polka dots




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 19 2024, 9:54 am
It doesn't matter what the therapist thinks. You know your son, you know the full picture. You know what struggles you had with him the day before and what else you or him are dealing with. You have to pick your battles and this is how you saw fit to deal with it.
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Elfrida




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 19 2024, 10:01 am
amother Mintcream wrote:
For me that would be considered chutzpah
He isn't a toddler or young child that might need to be reminded where the mail goes. He did this bedafka.
In our home, we define chutzpah exactly like this.
When you do something bedafka to annoy your parent to get away with something and then make a silly face, that is intentional. That is chutzpah
The decision to respond would be made based upon things going on, so it could be I wouldn't make it onto a big deal at that time- but would bring it up another time and use it as a teaching moment.
By us, we do a strategy of teaching, reminding, prompting.
As in, the first few times, explaining and teaching the concept, then if happens again reminding this is an example of what we discussed etc and we went over this so you know that it falls into the category, so I am reminding you. Try again. Then the last step is prompting. I give the cue that we worked on when teaching - such as a specific look, touch on shoulder whatever we came up with together and don't even say anything. Child fixes it. If child doesn't then it needs to be dealt with.
Doing it this way makes it a conscious chinuch vs kids learning what chutzpah is only when parents freak out and and they keep testing because sometimes you choose to freak, sometimes you address calmly and sometimes you ignore.
If we are choosing to let it slide, I will say it outloud- I'm choosing to let it slide because of xyz.
Obviously we aren't perfect and can't always respond, sometimes we just plain react. But this is what we try to do


I can see this being a strategy to use for younger children, but I thi know with teenagers it would only exacerbate the situation.
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amother
  OP


 

Post Tue, Nov 19 2024, 10:03 am
amother Linen wrote:
Op it sounds like you handled it very well and he followed through and picked it bavk up. Only thing I would have done differently is I would have been close by and after he picked it up stuck out my hand and asked for it. And I would say 'thank you' . By taking it you are avoiding his next step of throwing it in the wrong place which was bound to happen at this point. If this interaction was preformed calmly kudos to you
Only thing wrong here is the "professional " who was not hired to work with this child and was totally out of line for getting involved and offering opinion. Should have acting like nothing going on.
Maybe I didn't read whole thread clearly but if you consider it chutzpah (which it is as is age appropriate) what would you do different? Besides stay calm and have child pick it up?


Thanks, these are good points. I probably would have stayed till he picked it up had he delayed in doing so, but he really did start right away, and it was a hectic time of day, so I guess I stepped away for 30 seconds, by which point he'd put the pile on the counter. I shared above that in my book chutzpah is more deliberate rudeness than deliberate annoyingness and I felt he was being more annoying than rude. If I had read as actual chutzpah, there's still the trickiness of the fact that davka last night was the night before what is a very important day for him. I don't know what I would have done, but I think I might have still gone lighter than I typically do for what I consider to be chutzpah. A farher is a big deal. It was very important that he go to bed earlier than usual and with a good attitude (which bh he did) and that he wake up and get ready with a good attitude (also bh, had a calm, smooth morning). That's definitely a factor that we can't discount. If he'd had nothing but a regular day today? Things might have gone down differently.
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amother
  Linen


 

Post Tue, Nov 19 2024, 10:10 am
amother OP wrote:
Thanks, these are good points. I probably would have stayed till he picked it up had he delayed in doing so, but he really did start right away, and it was a hectic time of day, so I guess I stepped away for 30 seconds, by which point he'd put the pile on the counter. I shared above that in my book chutzpah is more deliberate rudeness than deliberate annoyingness and I felt he was being more annoying than rude. If I had read as actual chutzpah, there's still the trickiness of the fact that davka last night was the night before what is a very important day for him. I don't know what I would have done, but I think I might have still gone lighter than I typically do for what I consider to be chutzpah. A farher is a big deal. It was very important that he go to bed earlier than usual and with a good attitude (which bh he did) and that he wake up and get ready with a good attitude (also bh, had a calm, smooth morning). That's definitely a factor that we can't discount. If he'd had nothing but a regular day today? Things might have gone down differently.

..thanks for defining your view chutzpah.

You sound like a great mom you really know your child and knew it was a stressful night for him.
The only thing I do differently with these boys and direct chutzpah (verbal) is calmly call them on it and I walk away
I'd say something like
-don't talk to me like that
-that was chutzpah
-I can't believe you'd talk to me like that
Or I just give them a look
But always make sure to walk away and not get into any more combat
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amother
Emerald


 

Post Tue, Nov 19 2024, 10:18 am
Chayalle wrote:
Lastly, the professional in your home should not be mixing into your business or parenting. She should keep to doing whatever she was there for in the first place.


This.

Why on earth is he giving his opinion on how you parent? Such a crossing of boundaries.

I've had many therapists in my home, and sometimes I felt very self-conscious that my parenting techniques may have seemed wrong/incompetent when overheard without knowing the background/dynamics of a particular child/situation. But I parented mindfully as I felt was right, not what would look right to an outsider. But, still, NEVER has a therapist commented.
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amother
Dustypink


 

Post Tue, Nov 19 2024, 10:20 am
amother OP wrote:
I asked my 13 year old son last night to bring in the mail. He's done this task enough to know that bring in the mail = put it on the dining table. He decided to toss the mail through the door and it ended up scattered on the floor of the entryway. He started to walk away from it, so I stopped him and said no, you need to pick it up and put it where it belongs. He grumbled a bit, but picked it all up, then he decided to put it on the kitchen counter instead of the dining table and laughed, because he knew that's not where it goes. However, it's not that big of deal and it was at least all in a pile in one place, so although he was being deliberately annoying, I let it slide and we both went on with our night.

I have a different child who receives some in home stuff, and the provider was there at the time and witnessed this interaction. She said my son was very chutzpadik and I should have taken a harder line. While I think he was annoying, I don't think what he did rose to the level of chutzpah. Ultimately, the thing that needed to get done was done. Also, he has a farher today, so the last thing either of us needed was anything to get him into a mood. Last night NEEDED to stay calm so that today would go smoothly. It wasn't worth an argument, and anyway, I got a pile of mail in one place that I could go through, so ultimately, he did the task even if he chose to be a bit silly and annoying about it. (And who's to say if the upcoming farher wasn't behind his moment of silliness in the first place? Wouldn't be the first time he acted out from nerves.) Who was right? Me or the provider? Dh says on instinct he agrees with me, but if a professional says differently maybe I was wrong?


just curios...did you ask her opinion? why is she telling you how to parent?
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giftedmom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 19 2024, 10:22 am
amother OP wrote:
I asked my 13 year old son last night to bring in the mail. He's done this task enough to know that bring in the mail = put it on the dining table. He decided to toss the mail through the door and it ended up scattered on the floor of the entryway. He started to walk away from it, so I stopped him and said no, you need to pick it up and put it where it belongs. He grumbled a bit, but picked it all up, then he decided to put it on the kitchen counter instead of the dining table and laughed, because he knew that's not where it goes. However, it's not that big of deal and it was at least all in a pile in one place, so although he was being deliberately annoying, I let it slide and we both went on with our night.

I have a different child who receives some in home stuff, and the provider was there at the time and witnessed this interaction. She said my son was very chutzpadik and I should have taken a harder line. While I think he was annoying, I don't think what he did rose to the level of chutzpah. Ultimately, the thing that needed to get done was done. Also, he has a farher today, so the last thing either of us needed was anything to get him into a mood. Last night NEEDED to stay calm so that today would go smoothly. It wasn't worth an argument, and anyway, I got a pile of mail in one place that I could go through, so ultimately, he did the task even if he chose to be a bit silly and annoying about it. (And who's to say if the upcoming farher wasn't behind his moment of silliness in the first place? Wouldn't be the first time he acted out from nerves.) Who was right? Me or the provider? Dh says on instinct he agrees with me, but if a professional says differently maybe I was wrong?

Oh please. You’re the mom. You know your child. Don’t let anyone with a degree who probably isn’t raising teens to tell you any different. You’re doing good mama.
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amother
Azure


 

Post Tue, Nov 19 2024, 10:32 am
Only you know your kid, your parenting style, and the dynamics.

In my home, what he did would be considered chutzpah, but that doesn’t mean it needs to be called out in the heat of the moment.

If it was me, I would 100% have let it go, but likely today I would start by asking how the faher went, if it went well -I would probably say you seemed stressed yesterday, and BTW, I know you were stressed but the mail thing, I didn’t appreciate it. I didn’t call you out yesterday because I didn’t want to add stress before the father. Call him out but not make a big deal and do it in a calm and present way-the idea to mechanech him and tell him you are not stupid, not to berate him. It also lets him know you respect him and are putting him and his needs first as you point out you didn’t say anything yesterday.

(If the faher didn’t go well, I would drop it altogether.)

When you refer to the professional, I don’t know what unprofessional she is or why she is there or what package she comes with. If she is there for home management, and she is seeing other things that I want in your house, she may have a very valid point. She is a speech therapist, and she does not have experience with teens, then she was giving you her mom opinion and that’s not a professional opinion which is completely valid, but nothing you need to go by, as we all have different parenting styles, different to children, and run our households differently.
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Tue, Nov 19 2024, 10:40 am
Parenting teens is choosing which battles are important. Only a parent sees the entire picture so only a parent should choose.
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amother
Yellow


 

Post Tue, Nov 19 2024, 10:48 am
I pick my battles. Also I let my kids have two wins a day when we aren’t on the same page. So he got a win he put it on the kitchen counter. I’d much rather save consequences and arguments for serious things. This is so not worth it.
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