Would you treat this like chutzpah?

amother

OP ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 8:59 am

I asked my 13 year old son last night to bring in the mail. He's done this task enough to know that bring in the mail = put it on the dining table. He decided to toss the mail through the door and it ended up scattered on the floor of the entryway. He started to walk away from it, so I stopped him and said no, you need to pick it up and put it where it belongs. He grumbled a bit, but picked it all up, then he decided to put it on the kitchen counter instead of the dining table and laughed, because he knew that's not where it goes. However, it's not that big of deal and it was at least all in a pile in one place, so although he was being deliberately annoying, I let it slide and we both went on with our night.

I have a different child who receives some in home stuff, and the provider was there at the time and witnessed this interaction. She said my son was very chutzpadik and I should have taken a harder line. While I think he was annoying, I don't think what he did rose to the level of chutzpah. Ultimately, the thing that needed to get done was done. Also, he has a farher today, so the last thing either of us needed was anything to get him into a mood. Last night NEEDED to stay calm so that today would go smoothly. It wasn't worth an argument, and anyway, I got a pile of mail in one place that I could go through, so ultimately, he did the task even if he chose to be a bit silly and annoying about it. (And who's to say if the upcoming farher wasn't behind his moment of silliness in the first place? Wouldn't be the first time he acted out from nerves.) Who was right? Me or the provider? Dh says on instinct he agrees with me, but if a professional says differently maybe I was wrong?

amother

Mintcream ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 9:03 am

For me that would be considered chutzpah
He isn't a toddler or young child that might need to be reminded where the mail goes. He did this bedafka.
In our home, we define chutzpah exactly like this.
When you do something bedafka to annoy your parent to get away with something and then make a silly face, that is intentional. That is chutzpah
The decision to respond would be made based upon things going on, so it could be I wouldn't make it onto a big deal at that time- but would bring it up another time and use it as a teaching moment.
By us, we do a strategy of teaching, reminding, prompting.
As in, the first few times, explaining and teaching the concept, then if happens again reminding this is an example of what we discussed etc and we went over this so you know that it falls into the category, so I am reminding you. Try again. Then the last step is prompting. I give the cue that we worked on when teaching - such as a specific look, touch on shoulder whatever we came up with together and don't even say anything. Child fixes it. If child doesn't then it needs to be dealt with.
Doing it this way makes it a conscious chinuch vs kids learning what chutzpah is only when parents freak out and and they keep testing because sometimes you choose to freak, sometimes you address calmly and sometimes you ignore.
If we are choosing to let it slide, I will say it outloud- I'm choosing to let it slide because of xyz.
Obviously we aren't perfect and can't always respond, sometimes we just plain react. But this is what we try to do

What are some things you define as chutzpah in your home? How do you teach the concept? What are the expectations?

Last edited by amother on Tue, Nov 19 2024, 9:36 am; edited 3 times in total

Chayalle ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 9:05 am

Why does he have a need to do this type of thing? It sounds like there was an element of power involved on his part, like he needed to be in control. Which is fine - if we give a kid enough areas in his life where he can be in control, he will not feel the need to assert it inappropriately. But your example here shows a few things - his need for control, a certain rigidity on your part about where the mail usually goes (dumping it on the floor is not acceptable, but who cares if it's on the kitchen counter or dining room table). Also, the fact that you are catering to his mood - is this a usual thing, or just a choice on a random night not to pick battles.

Lastly, the professional in your home should not be mixing into your business or parenting. She should keep to doing whatever she was there for in the first place.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 9:11 am

cholenteater wrote:

To me, chutzpah would be actual mouthing off/rudeness or deliberately ignoring when told something directly. He did neither of those things. I was not happy, I wouldn't say his behavior was GOOD in that moment, but it did not seem worth a whole to do, especially given the importance of today.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 9:14 am

amother OP wrote:

I agree that the fact that he went and picked them up does show that he sort of met you half way (even 3/4 of the way). I don't think I personally would have done differently. It's not worth choosing battles with teens all the time.

But I would still ask myself some questions about the dynamics, and whether there is anything to consider for the future.

amother

↑ Mintcream ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 9:16 am

amother OP wrote:

So then your response makes sense and follows the expectations of your house. This is not defined as chutzpah by you and that's perfectly fine
Every house has different expectations.
You know your kids and dynamic more than anyone else.

Last edited by amother on Tue, Nov 19 2024, 9:37 am; edited 2 times in total

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 9:18 am

Chayalle wrote:

To clarify, I am not rigid at all. The mail on the dining table is just where it goes because that's where it's always gone, so generally when anyone brings in the mail, that's just where it goes. When I told him to pick it up after dumping it on the floor, it's likely my exact words were "pick it up now and put it on the table" NOT because I particularly care that they davka go on the table but because that's just where they go and that was me emphasizing to pick them up and put them where they belong (which is, of course, not the floor). What I really care about is that he gathered it up and put it somewhere reasonable. It was the provider who noticed the "discrepancy" that he put it on the counter and not the table and said that was chutzpadik. It's possible he did that to needle me, I won't discount that. This behavior is not common for him, but it's not never either. Again, he has a very important day today, and I could reasonably see it as coming from that.

imaima

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 9:28 am

amother OP wrote:

You know the circumstances and the outsider doesn’t.
Does the provider know where the mail in your house goes?
Also, did they expect you to berate him in their presence?

amother

Maple

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 9:33 am

Firstly, I would ignore this provider. S/he comes for a different child to deal with different issues. If you consulted with her on parenting she’s welcome to share, but you didn’t Smile

I totally hear what you were saying about choosing your battles, maybe he’s acting out because of his farher etc. Just from my own self, how many times do we react in certain ways not because of the situation at hand but something going on beneath the surface? Maybe it would be a good opportunity though to later say, “I saw you were acting a little off this afternoon, is it possible you’re nervous or anxious about your farher tomorrow?” And he’ll have an in to discuss it with you.

amother

↑ Mintcream

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 9:34 am

imaima wrote:

You know the circumstances and the outsider doesn’t.
Does the provider know where the mail in your house goes?
Also, did they expect you to berate him in their presence?

This is important to, I try to avoid the discussion in front of providers (have quite a few coming for different children). It's not the time and place to call him out

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Nov 19 2024, 9:42 am

Thanks everyone for the point about the provider. I do understand where she's coming from as one of the things we're working on with that child is not imitating negative behaviors of peers/siblings (which he is prone to doing) so I think that's why she felt the need to comment. But ultimately, her responsibility is to work with the child she's assigned to, not any of my other kids. It should be on her to tell her assigned child what to do or not do, not comment on how I handle stuff that comes up with other children. You're right, I needed reminding of that.