Does Hashem punish?

↑ Molly Weasley

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 3:05 pm

taketwo wrote:

So in response to all of you, if I forget to make a bracha achrona a few times and then I get sick that might be because Hashem is punishing me for not making the bracha achrona?

Hashem intentionally does not punish us with (human) Rhyme or Reason, that would prevent us from having b'cherah.

Tzadikim can understand why they're being punished.

#BestBubby ↓

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 3:09 pm

Any hardship can be a punishment

Or it can be a test to increase one's reward.

Whenever something bad happens to me I say

"May it be a kapporah (atonement)" [for my sins]

I find it comforting that any suffering I experience benefits me. (Saves me from gehinom )

Cheiny ↓

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 3:10 pm

taketwo wrote:

So in response to all of you, if I forget to make a bracha achrona a few times and then I get sick that might be because Hashem is punishing me for not making the bracha achrona?

No. Mostly we learn that s’char and onesh are left for the next world.

write4right ↓

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 3:19 pm

taketwo wrote:

What response could I give a child who says to another child "that happened to you because Hashems punishing you for doing xyv" ?

Tell them that the Gemarah explicitly says you can't say that because it's onaas devarim.

Explained that even though Hashem does punish we don't understand how and why and when. He's smarter than us and it's not something we're able to see in other people and usually even in ourselves.

Green Tea

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 3:19 pm

It’s very hard to live in a state of perpetually feeling or being scared of punishment, and it’s not conductive to our role. Additionally, a lot of religious abuse and people going OTD has happened from this mindset, if you wish to call it that. Life is not perfect, black or white, and at the same time, we know that Hashem is also understanding. If someone takes his life it is an aveira, but if that person has a mental illness, then there is an allowance for him to not be punished based on that.(what I learned in seminary). That’s also why we ask shailos to rabbonim who could be our conduit to decide if X or y is appropriate or mutar for us or our personal situation. As someone said above, we cannot be Hashem’s judges for someone if something was a gezeirah or otherwise. I also believe that many outwardly “bad” things that happen carry a benefit to us or learning experience that we wouldn’t have had in any other way, so it wouldn’t make sense to call it a “punishment”, which is a very Christian belief of things. Hashem isn’t a creator that punishes, rather, if we do not keep his mitzvos which are like guidelines for this world, it’s like putting your hand onto a hot plate and not realizing it. The difference is, that in this world, there is a time relay and the “burn” effect happens later/may or may not affect us in seemingly unrelated circumstances afterwards.

↑ taketwo ↓

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 3:37 pm

write4right wrote:

Thank you. That's a helpful response for him.

↑ taketwo

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 3:37 pm

Green Tea wrote:

Thanks for the lengthy response. It's helpful.

↑ Cheiny

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 3:49 pm

taketwo wrote:

What response could I give a child who says to another child "that happened to you because Hashems punishing you for doing xyv" ?

That it’s not true and that no human being is capable of knowing or understanding everything Hashem does.

balance

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 3:57 pm

taketwo wrote:

What response could I give a child who says to another child "that happened to you because Hashems punishing you for doing xyv" ?

We can't know.
We don't know dinei shamayim.
We do our best to be good yidden and serve Hashem properly and the rest is in His hands.
Keep it simple.

learning1

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 4:19 pm

If you have the resources, look it up in Derech Hashem, Part 1, ch. 2-3, English translation by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. Or you could start at the beginning, where the principle is laid down that Hashem created the world and man to bestow good. In that light, the Ramchal explains why punishment and suffering is ultimately for man's good (for example, to refine his middos to get better reward in the next world). That's for you to understand, not for your child Smile

For your child I see you already got some answers.

↑ #BestBubby

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 5:55 pm

Cheiny wrote:

No. Mostly we learn that s’char and onesh are left for the next world.

I learned tzaddikim get their onesh in this world so they don't get gehinom

And reshoim get their reward in this world so they don't get much olam hahaha.

That is why this world is Tzaddik v Ra Lo and
Rasha v Tov Lo

Good people suffer in this world and wicked people prosper in this world

↑ write4right

Mon, Aug 26 2024, 9:02 am

Jews and Xians both have concept of the fires of punishment in the next world.

And a lot of people are confusing the two.

The metaphorical fires are not there to burn, like an incinerator, to burn and destroy. That's a non-jewish concept.

The metaphor of the fire refers to the fire of a smelter. It is a fire that refines and purifies.

Consequences can be painful, but they're not associated with destruction. Hashem didn't create things to destroy but only to bring good from.

b.chadash

Mon, Aug 26 2024, 11:32 am

Hashem doesn't punish in order to take revenge. In the physical world, the punishment is simply a consequence of the action, or an act of vengeance for a wrong committed.

When Hashem "punishes" someone, it has a higher purpose. Either to cleanse them or to help them become more refined.
What we perceive as a punishment is there to help us. Just as a child being forced to take a bitter tasting medicine thinks his father is out to get him, not realizing that the medicine is there to heal him.

The Torah ls filled with stories of people getting punished, and Chazal are able to connect the crime with the punishment. We are unable to do that. We need to trust in Hashem that whatever He does for us us for Our good, even if it's unpleasant. We dont have Chazal to connect the dots for us, so this is where bitachon comes in.

I think that bitachon is very much absorbed through osmosis. Children who hear their parents constantly saying gam zu letova, or being accepting when things go wrong, reiterating that they belive that Hashem has a plan, etc, end up having a much easier time developing bitachon. Unfortunately children who are exposed to the opposite- parents who are always getting bent out of shape and angry when things go wrong, blaming the world and Hashem, have a harder time trusting in Hashem's goodness.