This weeks double take - cousins club

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 10:55 am

singleagain wrote:

For all this who have difficult children. I think at the very least explaining it somewhat would help that the rest of the family or whomever you are with to not feel so resentful.

Libas kids are not "difficult", just needed adult direction or boys their age to play with.
It's not their fault they think it's OK to play ball in the house or plow over little children...that's on their parents.
Plenty of boys that age who act that way grow to be great adults.

amother

↑ Catmint

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 1:39 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I didn't think it was so uneven. I also have SN siblings.

To clarify, you would be ok to hide away a sn child from a family simcha because the other side is uncomfortable? And I‘m not talking about a sn child that would endanger others. The story was about a harmles and regular sn child.

amother

↑ Marigold ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 8:48 pm

Chayalle wrote:

She did have both genders, and yes there were other circumstances. Not IF.

My point though is, why does everyone always have to jump to assuming IF. People have all sorts of other circumstances. Mental health, SB, etc....
My point is, we don't have to speculate about anyone else and what's going on by yenem. And the way we act about a fictionalized story often matches our behavior IRL.

You obviously did not read my post.

I literally wrote that if there is only one gender for 8 years, it is either SIF...OR there is a major issue going on (like mental illness etc) for which they'd have a heter. And if this is the case for Liba, then yes, this would be a source of pain for her as not having more kids is a direct consequence of whatever she is struggling with and not an active choice.

Re the bolded, um, what? So why aren't you calling out LH for all the posts judging either side? Do you analyze every interaction you have the way this thread is doing for 10 pages? I would hope not! We take apart fiction so we can better empathize with people IRL who might mimic the behavior of make believe characters. Doesn't mean we over-analyze people in real life!

amother

↑ Marigold

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 8:53 pm

amother Purple wrote:

No one's brought this point up yet so I will. Are my kids the only one's who escalate badly if they're sent to time out or forced to apologize? Like if I say that and need to enforce it, it will end up being a huge scene which will make everyone extremely uncomfortable and bring more judgment on them and on myself? Even just a reprimand can set off a string of chutzpah. Yes, my kids are oppositional and I know it's not typical, but there are other kids like this too and they don't have obvious disabilities. It's a lose lose situation for me as a parent, but I usually choose to just stick to a reprimand without attaching any command or immediate consequence, which can make me look permissive and weak as a parent.

I wonder if Liba's boys are like this too.

I agree with this, especially when it happens in public. Not all my kids, but there are definitely some whose behavior will only spiral downwards when told off in front of a bunch of cousins and aunts and uncles.

Also, I'm sure Liba finding herself constantly being told to control her kids better put her on the defense so that she couldn't back down and admit that her kids DID need to rein in their wildness and that she could do a better job at supervising them. When certain personality types feel attacked, they automatically go into fight mode.

Odelyah ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 10:10 pm

I didn't read the whole thread but 2 things: where was the boys father?? Aside from taking the one boy to shul? They should have taken turns napping and spending time with their boys.
And the other thing: I had energetic boys and I get the need to run around and bounce balls etc, but that doesn't excuse grabbing and running around with food and all-around poor manners/middos. That didn't just magically occur out of the blue because they were bored, without playmates, etc. for one shabbos..

amother

↑ Blush

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 12:37 am

Chayalle wrote:

It's literally the whole point of this column, to analyze the story and people's behavior, and to generate discussion.
I don't do this in real life because I am totally not into going into the kishkes of "yenem".
But the story was written for the purpose of discussion and seeing many sides to the same story.
And, in my opinion, although the author didn't insinuate any SIF, the fact that she chose to give liba a family of only two kids is rather strange. An author can insinuate something by omission almost as much as by inclusion.

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 9:39 am

amother Blush wrote:

Another glaring omission were the grandparents. Didnt they want a turn with the grandchildren? Grandmothers dont know how to play Perpetual Commotion?

amother

↑ Aqua

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 9:48 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

Another glaring omission were the grandparents. Didnt they want a turn with the grandchildren? Grandmothers dont know how to play Perpetual Commotion?

Thats why I pointed out that while Liba and her husband acted wrong, everyone else treated Liba and her family wrong also.
It really seemed like the grandparents wanted 1)all the princess grandchildren to play together and 2)all their kids together.

Liba coming was an afterthought in order to fulfill #2. And also she can help serve and clear because she doesn't have babies.

No one in the family wanted Liba or her boys.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 10:06 am

amother Catmint wrote:

I don't remember the child being hidden away, were they told not to bring her? I don't remember that.
My SN sibling is very much part of our Simchas BTW.

amother

↑ Cognac

Wed, Aug 21 2024, 10:45 am

Odelyah wrote:

Exactly! This behavior didn't happen in a vacuum. Liba's kids didn't become unmannered and out of control because of this Shabbos.
Most of their behavior is a result of permissive parenting.
Who lets their kids grab food and run around with it?
Obviously this is happening at home but Liba and her husband are ok with it.

↑ Odelyah ↓

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 8:18 am

Chayalle wrote:

I don't remember the child being hidden away, were they told not to bring her? I don't remember that.
My SN sibling is very much part of our Simchas BTW.

IIRC she was at the kids table with all the cousins and getting in their space and touching their food and making them uncomfortable. and they kept coming over to the mothers crying? And they were upset at the mom for the daughter ruining it for everyone? And I think asked her to take her away from the kids table (and maybe also disinvited her from shabbos sheva brachos but I'm not sure)

↑ keym

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 8:23 am

Odelyah wrote:

I just reread it.
She was at the cousins table, getting into their space, touching their hair and food, and teasing the girls that their dresses were ugly.

The mothers were upset that her mother didn't stop her or remove her, but they handled best they could at the wedding.

But they requested that Shabbos Sheva Brachos she be seated with her parents at the adult tables and not at the kids table.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 9:13 am

amother Blush wrote:

We can agree to disagree. I analyze a story based on information given. There is no hint in this story that IF is part of Liba's life at all. Hence bringing it in is, to me, strange, and indicative of a greater problem in society - people who do this IRL.

↑ Chayalle

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 9:15 am

Odelyah wrote:

I think asking to seat her with her mother, so her mother can supervise her, vs. disinviting her from shabbos sheva brachos altogether, is a major jump.

The first sounds reasonable, the second would be horrible, but never occurred in the story.

amother

↑ Kiwi

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 8:02 pm

amother Marigold wrote:

Sorry, but this doesn't fly. In this community, stopping after two boys without a very good reason (which again, whether that's major SB problems, mental illness etc would be a source of pain for her) is not halachically sanctioned as the man has not properly fulfilled his obligation of peru u'revu.

There are opinions that two boys fulfills it.

↑ Odelyah

Sun, Aug 25 2024, 11:00 pm

Chayalle wrote:

OK yeah I wasn't sure about that part, I agree there's a big difference. If that's the case, I think it was reasonable to say the girl should sit with the mother. I think the mother was being unreasonable. If she felt her daughter would be so hurt to be excluded, then maybe she should pull up a chair and sit with the kids. If the hosts wanted to go above and beyond maybe they could set up a mothers' table next to the girls table so the mom could sit right by the daughter at the next table, to make it less awkward while clearly communicating that she is expected to supervise 100%..