This weeks double take - cousins club

amother

↑ Poinsettia

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 4:31 am

amother Blush wrote:

Except that it didn't seem that Liba has any awareness that her kids were wilder than average. You seem very aware of your son's limitations.

I mean maybe she didn't express Liba properly, but IRL, trust me, most moms of these kids (unless mom herself truly truly never cares and is similar herself) are very aware and it's always a constant decision when to intervene and when no. If the behavior *could* pass as normal and it's just bothering people - well if you disciplined for every single one of those times, you'd be disciplining every single second of every single day. It doesn't work and it only creates negativity. These family events are not worth that negativity or stress, they really aren't. And the chance of success is basically zero. So....why bother?

amother

↑ Obsidian

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 8:56 am

amother Poinsettia wrote:

Or maybe it was normal to her because she uses permissive parenting methods. I've seen this type of behavior with parents who use this method. So while the parents are OK with the behavior in their own home, they fail to realize how this behavior manifests in public settings. They then blame others for not accepting their children as is.

Young kids don't have the mindset to know they need to behave differently when they go elsewhere. They assume that what's done in their home is OK to be done elsewhere. Since they're used to self-regulating and lax rules, that's how they behave elsewhere. So while parents are free to run their homes as they wish, they can't expect others to be ok with inappropriate behaviors in their space.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 9:07 am

amother Marigold wrote:

Nope, not for eight years with one gender unless, again, it's a VERY good reason, which would be some sort of painful life circumstance she is dealing with. Please name one reason that doesn't match this description for which a rav would allow it with one gender for this long.

Not my business so no need to answer but curious if your relative had both genders.

And sorry, we're allowed to analyze a fictional story. It's not someone's real life, no need to get annoyed.

She did have both genders, and yes there were other circumstances. Not IF.

My point though is, why does everyone always have to jump to assuming IF. People have all sorts of other circumstances. Mental health, SB, etc....
My point is, we don't have to speculate about anyone else and what's going on by yenem. And the way we act about a fictionalized story often matches our behavior IRL.

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 9:27 am

amother Poinsettia wrote:

But Liba disciplined, and intervened, and kept her sons busy while the men were in shule etc, It was the afternoon nap when her husband Dovid told her he was "around" and then not heard from, that caused the problems. During Libas 2 hour nap, no one bothered her or knocked on her door, So the Aunts were really taking care of the boys,

I honestly feel Dovid should have kept his boys busy over the afternoon, like Liba did Friday night. Its not such a big deal. Play a game with them, go to a local park whatever...

amother

Catmint ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 10:10 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

I dont remember a Double Take where the two sides are not so even. Usually I can understand both sides, here its clearly Liba (and Dovids) fault.
Maybe the Double Take where the family getting a lot of tzedaka from the community, splurges on a luxury trip with their inheritance...

The one with the special needs child at the simcha was uneven. As sibling to special needs children it really struck a nerve. I truly hope that there are no frum Jews that think and behave like that.

amother

↑ Purple ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 10:11 am

No one's brought this point up yet so I will. Are my kids the only one's who escalate badly if they're sent to time out or forced to apologize? Like if I say that and need to enforce it, it will end up being a huge scene which will make everyone extremely uncomfortable and bring more judgment on them and on myself? Even just a reprimand can set off a string of chutzpah. Yes, my kids are oppositional and I know it's not typical, but there are other kids like this too and they don't have obvious disabilities. It's a lose lose situation for me as a parent, but I usually choose to just stick to a reprimand without attaching any command or immediate consequence, which can make me look permissive and weak as a parent.

I wonder if Liba's boys are like this too.

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 10:13 am

amother Catmint wrote:

The one with the special needs child at the simcha was uneven. As sibling to special needs children it really struck a nerve. I truly hope that there are no frum Jews that think and behave like that.

Missed that one...sorry.

amother

↑ Purple ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 10:27 am

singleagain wrote:

For all this who have difficult children. I think at the very least explaining it somewhat would help that the rest of the family or whomever you are with to not feel so resentful.

Unless people have been there they don't really get it. These aren't kids with diagnoses.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 10:30 am

amother Catmint wrote:

The one with the special needs child at the simcha was uneven. As sibling to special needs children it really struck a nerve. I truly hope that there are no frum Jews that think and behave like that.

I didn't think it was so uneven. I also have SN siblings.

amother

↑ Purple

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 10:31 am

singleagain wrote:

Say that you're aware that their issues and your working on it. You know don't just not say anything

I don't know. I've wanted to do this but always felt uncomfortable. First of all, it seems disrespectful to my children. Second of all, I feel like it invites more judgment.

amother

↑ Blush ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 10:34 am

amother Purple wrote:

Again, at least you are aware. The way Liba's side was presented, she seemed clueless. It was very difficult to have sympathy for her when you read her side.

As a total aside, I wonder if we, the readers, would judge the Double Take differently in any story, if the order of the sides presented were reversed. Like , when you hear one side first, are you already biased towards that side, and whatever the second side says is viewed with less open-mindedness?

↑ singleagain

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 10:34 am

amother Purple wrote:

I don't know. I've wanted to do this but always felt uncomfortable. First of all, it seems disrespectful to my children. Second of all, I feel like it invites more judgment.

How is it disrespectful to your kids? It doesn't have to be in front of the whole group.

Just something like "just so you know the boys can be a bit wild sometimes. Sometimes it's not worth fighting with them, but I'm not unaware."

You can. Even say something before hand.

amother

↑ Cognac ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 10:34 am

We have no reason to think these boys have a diagnosis (besides for ADHD). In Liba's pov there is no mention of that.
IMO this is a case of permissive parenting. And like another poster mentioned you can't expect others to accept your children's behavior even if you're ok with it.

amother

↑ Cognac ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 10:36 am

I think the bitterness in Liba's take was coming from feeling left out of her sisters clique and I get it, it's a painful feeling feeling like an outcast.
But still no excuse for her acceptance and submission to her kids behaviors.

amother

↑ Cognac ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 10:38 am

amother Blush wrote:

I don't think so. I changed my mind plenty after reading the second side.
The only insight I gained from reading Liba's take was her feeling of being left out. Otherwise I still thought of her as a lax parent.

amother

Aqua ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 10:41 am

amother Cognac wrote:

Her actions (or inactions) were wrong.

But her siblings were wrong also. From the very beginning, it was a shabbos for the princesses to play together and oh yeah also Liba.
They seemed to use her as the hired help- arranging food, food prep.
That was obnoxious of them.

amother

↑ Cognac ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 10:43 am

amother Aqua wrote:

The only thing the siblings did wrong was expect her to be the only one to help.
Their husbands should have taken care of the kids while they helped along.