This weeks double take - cousins club

amother

↑ Poinsettia ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 1:36 pm

ittsamother wrote:

Or maybe two kids is all she wanted?? Just cuz in her community it's the norm to have more doesn't mean she personally wanted more! And nowhere in the story did the author give one hint of her internal longing for more or anything like that. Maybe she had these two, was overwhelmed, and was like actually this is all the amount of stress I want in my life, I'll just focus on these two. (She doesn't sound the type to be looking for more hard work, given how little she wanted to do the hard work involved in actively taking care of the two she has.)

I know how many I personally want, and I couldn't care less if everyone around me has double that, I wouldn't want that amount and that's that.

Maybe it's just a fictional story and the author didn't feel like giving Liba any more kids than she needed in order to prove her point.

amother

↑ Marigold ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 1:39 pm

amother Cognac wrote:

Can everyone please stop getting sidetracked with Liba's supposed SIF?
This is a fictional story and this is not part of the story.
And even if she is suffering from SIF still gives her no right to let her kids free reign like that.

Relax. Every part of someone's life is relevant when you interact with them.

Of course she was wrong.

But so were her sisters. They should have been more accommodating of her and her kids regardless of whether she was suffering from SIF. But if she was (which is very likely imo), a little sensitivity goes a long way.

amother

↑ Bergamot ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 1:41 pm

amother Poinsettia wrote:

Reading it again I notice:
1. At the very top, before the story really even starts, it classes this family get-together as a get-together to watch little princesses play, meant to let the moms of the 0-5yos enjoy each others' company and shep nachas.
2. Liba comforts the little girl who her son knocked down. The mother wasn't the one offering comfort, she came in only after the fact. It's just not good enough for the princess' mother.
3. It's not like Liba didn't work hard to keep her kids entertained. She did. She didn't do it every single minute of the day, but she did sit down and play with them, try to keep them busy, while her sisters and sils hung out and chatted and read magazines she was "on call." It just wasn't enough for her siblings and she wasn't up to doing it 24 hours a day for the entire long weekend, plus helping out.

When they chose the place everyone thought about their own needs. If you don't have big kids you don't think of big kid needs. Liba should have said something. Pointed out that her kids are not 3

↑ Chayalle ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 1:42 pm

amother Marigold wrote:

Sorry, but this doesn't fly. In this community, stopping after two boys without a very good reason (which again, whether that's major SB problems, mental illness etc would be a source of pain for her) is not halachically sanctioned as the man has not properly fulfilled his obligation of peru u'revu.

Disagree. There are plenty of people on BC these days in every community, for a multitude of reasons.
I'm not shy about having had SIF. What I hate is people who need to think and analyze what's going on by yenem. It's none of anyone's business.
I have a relative who did not have SIF. Her youngest was nearly Bar Mitzvah when she had another baby. She was super annoyed by those people who acted like she must have had IF.

amother

Ballota

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 2:02 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Exactly. I have a close friend who has two girls, 5 years apart, the younger one must be at least 6 by now, and she hasn't had another not because of SIF but because she finds pregnancy and recovery so overwhelming and distressing she just mentally can't put herself back there again, regardless of her husband's mitzvah of peru urevu. She just can't stand being pregnant, told me things like "I really should get a move on, I'm just dreading it so much I can't make that final step toward it" etc. I don't think there's any SIF there. She just can't bear to get pregnant.

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 3:40 pm

amother Poinsettia wrote:

Dont worry in 13-15 years down the line, they will be begging those same two boys who will have grown up and be top (and popular) bochurim, to please set those same princesses up with their friends....

amother

↑ Blush ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 4:24 pm

Regarding whether or not she had SIF...
My opinion is that the author was trying to paint a realistic picture with a realistic family dynamic. If she didn't want to "focus" on other children, she davka would have given Liba more kids, to make it about the big boys.

Meaning, the fact that she has only 2 boys ages 8 and 10 is not typical and will raise eyebrows if you are reading the story. I think this ommission jumps out in a very obvious way to anyone who reads this story.

If I was writing the story, I would for sure give her more kids to make her fit in, so that the focus of the story can be on her two boys.

Therefore, I don't think it's out of bounds to speculate that she may have had other things going on with her feelings about her sisters and their kids, even if the author didn't actually spell ot out.

Hey, Rochel Samet, if you are reading this, can you confirm if this is something you thought about when making up this story?

amother

↑ Blush ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 6:34 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

I dont remember a Double Take where the two sides are not so even. Usually I can understand both sides, here its clearly Liba (and Dovids) fault.
Maybe the Double Take where the family getting a lot of tzedaka from the community, splurges on a luxury trip with their inheritance...

Actually for over a year now, she has written many stories where one side is clearly right and the other is clearly wrong.
It still helps to hear the thinking if the wrong side.
Remember the story of the woman who allowed her neighbor to use her pool free of charge for weeks on end? And the neighbor had no problem asking her to turn up the heat, and then got upset when she was asked to stop coming on certain days?

amother

↑ Bergamot

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 9:28 pm

amother Blush wrote:

That one I felt they were both right.
The pool owner did offer her pool to her neighbor and when the neighbor asked if she could use it every day at these times she said ok. She only started getting resentful when people started telling her she needs to set 'boundaries'. Which is a word that's thrown around but apparently no one really knows what it means. Boundaries are for unhealthy relationships not healthy ones. This neighbor could have nicely said hey we want to use the pool now please don't use it today. Yes I know the heated pool is nice but it costs. The neighbor would have understood.

amother

↑ Marigold ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 10:17 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Nope, not for eight years with one gender unless, again, it's a VERY good reason, which would be some sort of painful life circumstance she is dealing with. Please name one reason that doesn't match this description for which a rav would allow it with one gender for this long.

Not my business so no need to answer but curious if your relative had both genders.

And sorry, we're allowed to analyze a fictional story. It's not someone's real life, no need to get annoyed.

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Mon, Aug 19 2024, 11:05 pm

imamommy5 wrote:

I don't think they didn't like their nephews. Just they were hungry and tired and annoyed.

They didnt like their behavior! They loved their nephews!! I was just pointing out that they wont be little boys forever and one day may be an asset to the family.

I dont think anyone was hungry at that Shabbos, but yes, annoyed was right. And rightly so...

BTW Why SIF wasnt an issue is proven when Liba picks up to console her niece, in her narrative, there is no mention of her feelings of missing a child in her arms. Perhaps there is another reason for the gap...in any event this is a work of fiction to bring down the point of family gatherings not always being for everyone.

Finding a venue that works for everyone is often impossible. Either the activity is for the little ones or the big ones, planning ahead with a new exciting game might have worked here, or taking the boys to a park (little girls like parks too btw).

I found it interesting that the home had a pool and no one made use of it - I would have bribed my boys, behave over Shabbos and you can go for a dip after havdalla....

Regarding Dovids side, perhaps he came from a family where this is normal and expected for boys to be rowdy, grabbing and running in the house and want them to get it out of their systems while they are young. Or he secretly resents these get togethers and stays quietly to the side. Or as Chayalle wrote, he expects the women (vibben) to take care of the kids, after all, he did the mans job of driving them.

amother

Waterlily

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 12:41 am

amother Bergamot wrote:

So funny, of all the double take stories, I also feel the pool was most uneven, while all the other ones make you sympathetic to both sides. I could not justify the neighbor's behavior at all.

amother

Mulberry ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 1:34 am

amother Poinsettia wrote:

No, I'm Liba (my oldest is ASD and I'm NOT a permissive parent) and I don't think anyone deserves to feel like she did there. She should've stayed home because it was right for her, the rest of the family would've kvetched and been upset but they did that anyways, so she may as well do what makes herself and her family happier and spares them more headaches and suffering.

Yup- sounds familiar.
I also have a son with ASD who at this point behaves very nicely at home in his own familiar surroundings with a lot of extra support from me …

Put him somewhere else , plus extra stimulation , plus being off schedule and it is a disaster in the making.

Trust me, it is easier for my family to just stay home - we wouldn’t be resentful at all. We are used to it . However , when facing similar circumstances, whenever we mention that we might stay back , everyone protests. Seems like they have short memories and don’t remember how much they complained and criticized the previous time that we got together - occasionally I’ll just join the family event / party/ Shabbaton but I know that there’s a limit to how much I can try to discipline my child in unfamiliar surroundings. It doesn’t end well although , I can manage him perfectly on my own most of the time.

So, sometimes it may look like I’m sitting back and doing nothing or letting him get away with inappropriate behavior , but trust me I’m sitting on edge the entire time and not enjoying myself because I’m constantly reevaluating in my mind whether I should say something to him or it will make things worse. To make it even more difficult (although I should be and am grateful ), he looks and presents somewhat typical so sometimes people get annoyed that I’m a lazy parent who tolerates her child’s disrespectful behavior …

I found it interesting that many thought that this double take was so clear cut because as someone who is in Liba’s shoes IRL, I found myself nodding along as I read her side!

amother

↑ Blush ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 1:39 am

amother Mulberry wrote:

Except that it didn't seem that Liba has any awareness that her kids were wilder than average. You seem very aware of your son's limitations.

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Tue, Aug 20 2024, 3:48 am

amother Wallflower wrote:

So funny, of all the double take stories, I also feel the pool was most uneven, while all the other ones make you sympathetic to both sides. I could not justify the neighbor's behavior at all.

That story ended with the neighbor taking her kids to another pool for pay and the pool owner feeling bad.

I think it was the disparity between the haves and have nots that did it. Have nots don't realize that Haves are budgeting too and dont consider asking to heat the pool as a big deal.