This weeks double take - cousins club

amother

Honeydew

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 4:42 am

To me it sounds like this was something that should have been predicted ahead that was going to happen. 2 boys with a lot of energy need entertaining.
Was there no backyard that they could play?
When we do any sort of family events we know we need to ensure there is somewhere that all the children can play, and yes there are the different groups. There's the older boys, there's the older girls, the younger girls and the younger boys. And each group has different needs and not preparing for that will result in resentment and aggravation.
Long shabbos afternoons are a recipe for trouble. Someone should have considered what there would be for the children to play with and where. And it was a little on Liba to make arrangements for her boys as she knows them best and what their needs are. I personally would have had them either running around outside or taken them to a nearby park. Obviously I'd love to sit back, but as a parent your children's needs come first.

amother

Impatiens

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 4:47 am

I was Leba 20 years ago. We stopped going anywhere with the kids and just focused on our own family. Now it would be different as several of my siblings have large boy families but those days were really lonely. Until today, even though we have BH lots of nachas from our grown boys, daughters in law, grandchildren etc, I can't get past the old feelings when we get together with family. My sisters look up to us and ask us about chinuch and managing etc. They forgot the years of judgement or laugh away their own behavior as naivety but I never forgot.

amother

Wheat ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 4:56 am

The stories always have the same punchlines. Both sides could have done better, and there was a lack of communication there.
Liba should have planned better, and watched her kids better. The other sisters should have been kinder.
I have a bunch of boys, all boys. They all have various different levels of energy. None of them would run down the stairs so wildly that a little kid would have been thrown over. Balls are not allowed in the house, period. Soda is not allowed to be poured without a parent’s supervision (under the age of 12-13).
There are rules, and shockingly enough they even work for very highly energetic kids.
They work even better when you anticipate their needs, and stay somewhat alert to their behaviors.

“Boys will be boys” needs to be thrown out the window. Everyone is capable of being a mentch.

amother

Iris ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 5:56 am

amother Wheat wrote:

The stories always have the same
None of them would run down the stairs so wildly that a little kid would have been thrown over. Balls are not allowed in the house, period. Soda is not allowed to be poured without a parent’s supervision (under the age of 12-13).
There are rules, and shockingly enough they even work for very highly energetic kids.
They work even better when you anticipate their needs, and stay somewhat alert to their behaviors.

“Boys will be boys” needs to be thrown out the window. Everyone is capable of being a mentch.

House rules work in the house, but when you're not at home they easily get forgotten. Especially when most of the people around were used to dainty little girls, and not pre-empting more boisterous behaviour, and didn't even know about rules to impose. If the boys sense lack of direction and control, they take advantage of it.

She said that this was not typical of the way the boys behaved at home, where there was more structure and the shabbos table was suited to their needs.

amother

NeonGreen

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 7:25 am

I think it's expected that there's going to be some amount of chaos with a big family Shabbos. It's hard for parents, but still worthwhile because it's priceless time that cousins get to spend together.

I have very high energy boys who can be very wild. I think Leeba was wrong in that she never stepped in to correct her kods. She thought everyone else was wrong.

I have one sister in law with only very calm kids, girls mostly. My kidsnare always seej as the crazy wild boys with them even though I'm constantly watching them and correcting misbehavior and stepping in when needed.

I have another sister in law with even wilder kids and the difference is, she won't ever say anything to correct her kids. They could be hurting other kids, making a mess, breaking stuff. She won't stop them, she won't clean up, won't say anything. She sleeps in and guess who has to deal with her kids?

Still, I know what to expect and just make the best of it. The kids spend time with cousins, and we all survive.

amother

Tomato ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 7:58 am

Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. Funny how my issue with the story was the lack of discipline for the boys. Yes, it could've been better planned and age appropriate toys for the boys, but where was the discipline? Why did it take an uncle to tell the boys no ball playing at the table? Wheres a parent to have a conversation of what is expected when sitting at the table? To me it sounds like liba and her husband need to stop with the excuse of boys will be boys and get a handle on their kids. Yes, boys will be boys. Agreed 100%. And also they will understand what is expected of them. They need a good talking to, where they're going, who's going to be there and mainly because it's not their house, you can't run inside and play ball inside. I very much believe that this whole liba feeling left out and her kids being made into enemy #1 could've been prevented if her boys understood how they should behave and what is expected of them.

amother

↑ Tomato

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 8:11 am

amother Cognac wrote:

Seems like Liba practices permissive parenting.

Yes she felt left out. Yes her boys had no company and no outlet.
But the lack of discipline and the way her and her husband were out for lunch. Wrong!

I'm so happy someone agrees with me! I'm not a young newbie parent, I've been around the block a few times and the way parenting is done these days......

amother

↑ Cognac ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 8:14 am

amother Tomato wrote:

I'm so happy someone agrees with me! I'm not a young newbie parent, I've been around the block a few times and the way parenting is done these days......

It's interesting how most people are focusing on Liba and her boys being left out but not mentioning her glaring lack of parenting her boys.

amother

Charcoal

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 8:15 am

My son has ASD and when he’s bored he gets very wild quickly. He’s the oldest grandchild, his sister came 4 years later and then 2 little princess cousins and their baby brothers came after that 2 years and 1 year after respectively. So the a gap of 6 years between him and his girl cousins. And it’s really painful to try to keep him entertained and away from the babies all the time.

His sister can play with them but he can’t really. Although bh he’s gentle and they do love him.

So I totally understand Liba. It’s utterly exhausting to try to parent such children. And since I’m not busy with babies I’m expected to help setup and clean.

Loved going to my parents there are plenty of children to play with.

amother

Papayawhip

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 8:17 am

The boys were told to go play downstairs in the basement. The little girls were in the basement. And nobody thought than as adult should be in the basement to supervise, and/or that the boys should have an option of somewhere without the smaller kids. In general, when there us a range of kids, you need a rowdy play area and a quieter play area. Maybe they should have brought the younger kids upstairs if they are calmer.

Also, I don't understand having a fanily Shabbos with little kids in a place with a ton of delicate things and expecing that all will be fine with the same amount of supervision as at home. When we rent a home, we start off by taking pictures of where all the decor is and then removing everything delicate or breakable and putting them in a closet or wherever. And yes, disposables, even if the house comes with dishes you can use- who wants to have to deal with accidentally breaking something as it is passed from person to person?

I don't think a family Shabbos always needs a whole program, but it does need to be child focused. The adults cannot expect each meal to be bonding time while the kids play away from the table. And they can't expect kids to navigate a non familiar, breakable environment without constant of supervision.

↑ Lovable

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 9:30 am

amother IndianRed wrote:

Mom of all boy family here. If you don’t have high energy boys, you just don’t get it. And before you all jump on me that it’s a chinuch issue, I’ll tell you that from the stories my husband and his brothers were the exact same way, if not worse, and now they are all amazing husband and fathers, so considerate and helpful-the high energy is certainly a plus at this stage. So how did they all grow up to be so amazing from being such challenging children if their parents’ attitude was “bad chinuch”. I’m in the same stage as Liba, my boys are older than all their cousins, I wouldn’t leave them unsupervised and I would not let them physically hurt their cousins, but BH my siblings and siblings in law are all much less self centered than the ones in the story. And they all help me! My BILs play with the boys, my MIL brings new books for them, FIL learns with them, my SILs take them on walks.

This attitude is so wrong
Maybe if you lived on an island , but don't bring up your children this way between others in the name of chinuch
And re the bolded, since when does the end justify the means? I grew up with a younger brother who I was excused for everything because he was a boy. He is older now And a nice young man, but the way me parents handled him as a child is still inexcusable to my inner child.
Yes I am working on myself, but I'm just trying to prove a point

Also, talk about sitting on a high horse

amother

↑ Hyssop

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 9:40 am

amother Wheat wrote:

“Boys will be boys” needs to be thrown out the window. Everyone is capable of being a mentch.

It's so funny. I have only girls and I have never in my life used the phrase "boys will boys".
I read the story to my girls on shabbos because we love discussing the double takes together. At first, my 11 year old got really passionate on the sister's side and kept saying "what did she expect? They are BOYS! That's the way Hashem made them!"

I was internally rolling.

As an aside, I can relate to Liba feeling left out because I'm on a different stage than my siblings. The others have mostly boys and I don't have any babies. Yes, it stings when they get to do things together. That's the reality. They aren't being unkind.

It's still MY job to make sure to parent my children properly. I would never leave my kids for my siblings to parent and then go and lecture my siblings for not knowing how to entertain them properly!!!!

amother

↑ Wheat

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 9:40 am

Lovable wrote:

To be fair the poster you replied to does not act like Liba in the story does.

amother

Cobalt ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 9:43 am

mha3484 wrote:

One thing I found interesting and maybe it’s just a different culture but my parents had kids way before my mothers siblings. We were 10/8/4 when the first cousin was born and my grandparents and parents were well past the baby stage so that we had the opposite issue the machlokes was that functions were not catered to the under 5 crowd.

We were fully included in conversations so its weird to me no one at a table of adults can engage a 10 year old boy in conversation?

Yes! This part of the story was very weird! Generally an 8 and a 10 year old boy would be the star of the show! As the smaller children are just too young to engage.

I found this story very unrealistic on many different levels.

The kids are well behaved at home but can't behave in someone else's home? It's usually the opposite.

No little kids were acting up (no tantrums, grabbing stuff, etc) only the bigger boys (who are more easily controllable???).

You need to babyproof for babies and toddlers, not for big kids!!! Who should have enough seichel to understand better.

amother

↑ Cobalt ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 9:46 am

amother Peru wrote:

I think anyone commenting needs to write their age/stage And whether they’re a mom of boys. Because young mothers or girl moms really really can’t understand boys. They just can’t

I was the oldest and had a bunch of boys before my siblings.

Leba was totally in the wrong here. If you have boys it is your responsibly to WATCH them and be mechanech them. The fact that they were hurting the other children was totally not ok. Playing ball at the seudah? Ever heard of the word "NO"?

amother

↑ Cobalt ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 9:49 am

amother IndianRed wrote:

Very key difference.

amother

↑ Cobalt ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 9:51 am

amother IndianRed wrote:

Do you have an all boy family? Because it’s different. Boys who have younger siblings, and especially sisters, have much more of an opportunity to learn about playing softer and gentler.

And if they have an older sister, all the more so. They look up to her in some ways and learn from her.

I had an all boys family. Leba was wrong.

amother

Vermilion

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 9:51 am

I'm on team Have Several ADHD Boys But Still Think Liba Is Mostly Wrong. I get it. My three oldest are boys, very close in age, all with adhd, which is to say NOT easy kids. It's not an excuse not to parent them. And while there's a lot that I let slide at home, when we're out, it's a different story and they know it. And me and dh know it too. We don't go away for shabbos that often for exactly this reason. And when we do, dh and I go into knowing that it will NOT be a Yom menucha for us that week and we're ready to accept that. It was not ok for Liba and her husband to go into this with no plan and be all "we tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!" The other sibling were a little cliquey to be fair, and they did come off as a little bit naive parents of Littles who think they know everything about parenting when their oldest is 5, which is definately annoying. But Liba is way way more in the wrong here.

ora_43 ↓

Sun, Aug 18 2024, 9:58 am

I can't see the mishpacha article but just musing on 'boys will be boys.'

I hate when parents excuse bad behavior with "boys will be boys." As in, make no effort to correct objectively bad behavior like bullying or hurting other kids, dismiss it as 'high energy.' It's one thing to recognize that, hey, this kid is super high energy, and you're probably going to have to go over the 'no hitting' rule many many times before they get it. It's entirely another to just not even bother to discipline for hitting.

I also hate that "boys will be boys" makes certain behavior out to be a 'boy' behavior when it's not all that uncommon in girls. Yeah, boys are more likely to be high energy and to enjoy destruction, and girls are more likely to be able to play nicely (by parental standards) - but that other 10% of girls who can't isn't a small group. Life is hard enough for little girls who bounce off walls and struggle to keep their hands to themselves, we don't need to add the idea that only boy moms can possibly understand because girls are so much more naturally sweet and aidel (unspoken subtext: girls who aren't, are somehow broken).

(ftr I have kids of both genders)

all that said

It's also really unfair to make standard little-girl behavior the norm. It hurts boys. It hurts little girls who are outside the norm. Kids who are completely developmentally fine, whose behavior is good behavior relative to their age/ability, are treated like problem kids just because they like roughhousing and breaking things more than they like playing with dolls. So in that sense, yeah, we have to internalize that 'boys will be boys' in the sense of, not all kids are the average girl and that's OK, maybe we shouldn't expect all 9-year-old children to behave as well as the average 9yo girl any more than we expect all 16-year-olds (boys and girls alike) to be as physically strong as the average 16yo boy.