Spoiled generation?

amother

↑ Wandflower ↓

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 8:39 am

watergirl wrote:

This may be true in some parts of America but it is certainly not true of the vast majority of the country's frum Jews. I think you may be describing (from what I've seen here only) parts of Lakewood and Monsey, maybe parts of Brooklyn. This is not at all where I live now or anywhere else I've ever lived.

It’s a minority for Lakewood, monsey, Brooklyn. Makes no sense to pretend it’s the average family.

amother

Gardenia

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 8:40 am

This cycle is going to run us to the ground.
Extreme materialsm is the norm, in order to pay for it, we kill oursleves working while trying to take care of our family and homes, we can't so we hire los of extra help, help with the kids, nurses, cleaning ladies, party planners, but to afford that we need fo work more. The older generation is falling apart because instead of retiring they are also expected to be helping because life these days is so expensive. So they have less time to help with grandkids.
If you want to know where I think we pay the price? It's in the number of children we have. Materialism is the biggest birth control of our generation. You can't afford more than a few children if you need to live and work in this manner. You can't afford it physically or mentally and that's where I see the younger generation cutting down.

Highstrung

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 8:44 am

It’s sad. I see it with some of my kids. They are not even married and don’t live this lifestyle but I know they talk about it as if this is a number one goal in life.
I definitely think it’s the nisayon of this young generation. I also think it comes from feelings of emptiness within. Not that they are aware of it, but because with each generation the level of ruchnius goes down , they are lacking the little bit more that we had and with that lack comes the need to fill that void. This all gets tied with social media pressure of being able to share your photos and videos in an instant and it fills your mind to the point that you believe everyone lives this way and if you don’t you need to start. I think it’s a combination of these factors and others that previous generations didn’t need to deal with and weren’t challenges with this.

↑ watergirl ↓

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 8:46 am

amother Wandflower wrote:

It’s a minority for Lakewood, monsey, Brooklyn. Makes no sense to pretend it’s the average family.

I agree with you. It's a minority in general. I don't know how someone can say "America" as if the minority is the majority. My sister does this (she lives in another country) and she does it as a way to put down frum Jews in the States. It's really not cool.

amother

↑ Aconite ↓

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 8:50 am

amother Gardenia wrote:

I disagree. The price of frum life just costs so much with no extras. I don’t think it’s the extreme materialism causing people to cut down on number of children but rather the cost of frum life in general.

↑ watergirl ↓

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 8:58 am

amother Aconite wrote:

People say this and use it as their excuse to spend and buy excess.

What in frum life will cost so much more aside from tuition, which was not mentioned in OP's post?
Kosher meat, poultry, and dairy (if purchasing only CY) is more expensive, yes.
Clothing is more expensive only if you buy exclusively the frum brands.

I see a lot of people saying "oh well, what can we do, it's so expensive to be frum today" and they go on vacations, they go away for the summer (paying rent/mortgage for two homes at the same time, using "free camp" as the justification), they say they must have cleaning help. Some people I'm sure really do need the help, but most do not, and no, cleaning help has nothing to do with being frum. Vacations, going away for the summer, all these things people convince themselves they need to do in the name of being a frum Jew - that's wrong.

amother

↑ Aconite ↓

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 9:02 am

watergirl wrote:

Umm, do you not raise kids in a frum environment? The costs are astronomical.

Tuition, day camp (because parent works and child needs to be watched), food, uniforms (even though there are Gemach’s sometimes you still need to supplement), food (the more children the more food you need), larger vehicles, yomtov (Umm, just the expense of that alone being super frugal can be astronomical), housing within walking distance to a shul and more and more.

amother

↑ Aconite ↓

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 9:04 am

watergirl wrote:

Actually the frum brands can be cheaper for clothing that non frum brands (I buy at kidichic and Tottini for maximum of $10, for weekday stuff it’s 5. But multiply that times 2 children vs. 8 children- this is why people can’t afford more. Not because they’re buying $180 dresses but because they’re buying $10 dresses times more kids

amother

Charcoal

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 9:13 am

Einikel wrote:

As long as they're not asking you for handouts live and let live.

Maybe they aren’t asking for hand outs now. But when they make a simcha… or khv someone isn’t well. They have no savings to fall back on. Someone told me she had $$$$ saved diff there daughter wedding and used it for a down payment cause for the wedding she could collect for.

amother

Emerald ↓

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 9:39 am

Ugh I hate these generation generalizations.

Most people I know who do extravagant things have loads of money- so gezundeheit. And they are older, with kids getting married. And who says the younger people spending so much don't have the money?

And once we are pointing out criticisms, smearing massive groups of people, I'm sure I can think of some against the older generations. 🙄

amother

Stone ↓

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 9:42 am

amother Aconite wrote:

I agree with this.

I think the main thing is that real estate has gone up like crazy, and it's not like a frum family can just move out to the middle of nowhere.

My parents bought their nice size house house about 30 years ago for under 200,000. It's now worth close to 2 million.

We bought a tiny house in the same area a few years ago for 1.4.

My mom did not work and had full time help. Hired Help in those days was also much much cheaper than it is now. We went to Florida every winter. Flights were dirt cheap and my grandparents had a condo there so was basically a free vacation. Once real estate went up, condo was sold...

I work and have 4 hours cleaning help a week. We do take small local vacations but my kids have never been on a plane.

I'm in my 30s and my friends are all in similar situations as me- we grew up with a lot more privilege.

Now- both spouses work, not too much money for extras, all struggling to pay off our huge mortgages, tuition etc. our kids are no way as spoiled as we were growing up.

So yeah, just the opposite of the OPs assumption.

amother

Firebrick ↓

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 9:46 am

I didn’t read all of this but I will say, my mother was a stay at home mom, we didn’t have anything fancy, none of this alleged materialism.
But-when she comes to visit she goes on and on about how do I manage, 3 kids..full time intense job..hosting etc.
She’s like I did none of that when u guys were young.
So yes, it’s a diff generation-and it comes with certain things (conveniences for me..) that are the norm.
I’m not in town tho and it’s about coping rather than extravagance if that makes sense.

amother

Amaranthus ↓

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 9:49 am

amother Stone wrote:

totally agree with this.
I grew up not rich at all but life was much easier for my parents (They say this) than it is for the families now. Everything was much more affordable and manageable. There were lots of one income households. Cleaning help was cheap, babysitting was cheap, real estate was way cheaper. Life is freakin impossible to afford now.

rkay

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 9:59 am

amother OP wrote:

I'm not even so old, but a generation younger than me is just wow. Obviously it's very individual, but the way things have become "the norm" is just mind boggling.
I'm talking about tons of cleaning help, nurse for two weeks after giving birth, wedding dresser, traveling several times a year, throwing extravagant parties for their toddlers, upscale restaurants very often...

Cleaning help and a nurse postpartum isn't a luxury for everybody. It is often a necessity for hardworking mothers who need this to be happy, healthy and functional. The traveling, extravagant parties, etc.? I don't really think that most average people do that. Maybe it is community specific.

amother

Blushpink

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 10:42 am

interesting.

im young married in kollel, I see what OP is saying.

bH there is a lot of wealth in frum communites (not everyone, but its there) and now their kids are getting married on a standard thats really not so normal.

the wives dont work, vacation like crazy, wear designer EVERYTHING, high end luxury everything - bec they are still being supported.
I know this is not across the board so dont screech at me Rolling Eyes

im saying this is a real phenomenon. and while some of this wealth can carry over and support the next generation a lot of it cant.. and I wonder for these poor young adults who will be left with unrealistic expectations and no life skills

↑ watergirl

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 10:52 am

amother Aconite wrote:

Yes, of course I do.

As I said in my post, I was NOT referring to tuition. I assume you read that. I mentioned food, and like I said, aside from meat, poultry, and CY cheese, no it's not more expensive. I've made very literally every single YT since 2001. It's costly. It's not astronomical. I live near many shuls and bought a house about 7 years ago. We paid under 200k and property taxes are low. How? Because it's not in the NY tri-state area and we bought what we could afford.

If "making YT" means red meat at every meal and lots of extras, then I can see how it would be astronomical. That's not what making YT means for us, never has.