Daughter became extreme after seminary

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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children

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↑ Chayalle ↓

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:07 pm

amother Midnight wrote:

6 months back is very short. I'd say it takes most girls who go such an extreme in seminary a year or two to come back to themselves.
The only thing that sounds unusual is a sudden turn to chassidus, trying to learn in Yiddish, and talking about shaving etc...that just isn't something pushed by seminaries in EY which are geared for litvish (though there are some students in some of the frummer ones who come from chassidish families). That doesn't seem like something she would have picked up in seminary.

And it's not an easy path to go into if you don't have that background. Your typical top Chassidish bachur is looking for a top Chassidish girl who grew up that way, not what they call a "tzugekimminer".
It would be much smoother, I think, for her to find a more RW top bachur from the Litvish community to marry.

(I'm actually speaking from experience here....I have a close relative like OP's daughter, but she was drawn to the more extreme RW yeshivish world, and in fact married someone like that.)

↑ Rappel

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:08 pm

Also -- kudos,OP, for not making this into a fight. She has a great mom

amother

Blue

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:11 pm

Interesting how these girls try to be better in Adam lamakom and give up a little on Adam lachaveiro along the way..

↑ Chayalle ↓

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:14 pm

amother Blue wrote:

Interesting how these girls try to be better in Adam lamakom and give up a little on Adam lachaveiro along the way..

I don't think that's a really fair statement. Assuming a young person tries hard in areas of Kibbud Av/V'Aim, they still might have a battle ahead of them if they want to make life choices that are different from their parents/families/mesorah. One can't always live someone else's life choices.

However, there's a healthy way to go about things and minimize conflict, and when that route is taken, it does attest to the health of the people on both sides (the parents and the child). Sometimes it's not possible though (and not always the child's fault either.)

amother

Impatiens ↓

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:15 pm

OP, I would check in with dd that, since she clearly has chosen a different derech than that of your family's rav, she has and maintains her own rav and mentor- with whom she is comfortable asking honest, candid questions. Let her know that you and dh are happy to speak with said rav if there is ever a shailah or eitzah for which such a discussion would be useful, and if not, that's fine. And yes, support sending her to the community of her choice for breaks or a Shabbos or yom tov.

amother

Puce ↓

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:15 pm

You're not the first. many other people have gone through what you are going through. As a bt, I recognize a lot of my own behavior in your description of her.
Here are my tips.

1. Call one of her rabbis, or even better, a rabbi that her rabbi looks up to and talked about a lot in sem. Talk to him about this and your concerns and ask that he speaks with her about it. Maybe Rav Asher Weiss is a good idea as someone who is chassidish but is very understanding. Someone else in EY? She might just need someone to talk to her about her perception of where she came from. After all, Hashem chose YOU to raise her, so she needed this chilled upbringing. It is not okay for her to feel better than you or arrogant about it. She should learn to respect and appreciate everything you have given her. More than any bt or ger, she has a solid background in Torah and mesorah and now wants to be more stringent. She must understand that you are also keeping Torah and that there are many ways to keep Torah because there are many people who keep Torah and everyone needs a different way. Like in yam suf there were 12 splits in the yam. We all have our direction, but nothing is wrong with others way (if they keep halacha)

2. She might have a neshama that needs to be chassidish. It's not the end of the world. Maybe have an open conversation with her about it. What the lifestyle is and where it differs from the community you are a part of.
Or what draws her so much in that direction. Maybe she went out to families for shabbos and really enjoyed the chassidish meals more. I started out in a litvish sem but was always drawn to chasidim. I married a yeshivish litvak who had the same feeling. We found a rebbe and slowly became part of a chassidish kehila. It's doable to change over, but it is different. She must be aware of that.

3. If she is able to respect your chalav stam (as an example) and don't make a fit about not being able to drink from your coffee mugs or whatever, try to be respectful back. If she feels validated and accepted she is more likely to put down her sword. Ideas for that is to let her have her stringent food and buy it without asking her, or even accommodate some of her chumras when making dinner.

4. There is a way to dress that is very quiet but elegant and not form fitting. Maybe find a way to introduce that. Especially in the chassidishe world it should be easy to find some nice cardigans with only a few colorful details. Make sure that her stockings aren't running and that her clothes are not more than one and a half size too big.

Know that it can take a very long time to mellow out. My own bt mellowing happened about 8 years after I became frum, from my modoxly raised husband who is allergic to frum ocd.

And sometimes it is just that. A mental disorder dressed onto frumkeit. I know people who are perfectionists. They stayed perfectionists, but instead of getting straight A it started to manifest as being perfect for Hashem. A lot of people have gotten hurt by that, because they haven't figured out to do it quietly. Instead they will bring their own food to restaurants because the hechsher isn't good enough. Or not go to family weddings because there is mixed dancing etc.

You also sound like a good mother that cares. It's not easy when kids rebel towards their parents. I wish you only bracha and hatzlacha and you should have a lot of nachas from her. You are blessed. In our society there are many teenagers that go in the opposite direction from her. Take a moment to appreciate that.

giftedmom

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:19 pm

Lots of enlightening info here. I just want to say from the perspective of a chassidish community, unless it’s chabad (which doesn’t speak Yiddish) chassidish women are not at all like this, even and especially the very Frum ones. Does she know anyone chassidish irl?

amother

Valerian

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:23 pm

amother OP wrote:

I have one daughter (and a bunch of boys). She is a lovely, smart, good person. She's always had a drive to be more frum, more yeshivish than our family, and she has made it very clear that she doesn't appreciate our healthy, chilled, out-of-town frum community.
I was really not looking forward to sending her to seminary, but there really isn't any other choice for out-of-town girls. And she pushed for it so hard. We sent her to a top, very frum school, because that's where top, smart, frum girls go.
And if I was worried beforehand... all that worry is justified. She came home wanting to have nothing to do with our family, just dreaming at every second of seminary and wanting to go back to Eretz Yisrael. She had long had a certain career plan, and now changed to something very practical and quick, which is not a problem at all, except that she had never expressed any interest in this area. She now keeps chalav yisrael, tosfos shabbos, wears only dark and dowdy clothes. Again, none of these things are problematic at all, it's just the package that's really worrisome. It's been 6 months now, and although she has bH become closer to our family, smaller and more worrisome things keep popping up. She keeps wanting to cut her hair shorter and shorter, even though it's already so refined, shoulder-length. She listens to shiurim all day - but not mainstream shiurim for frum women, but men's shiurim in yiddish (and we don't speak yiddish! though she has been actively trying to learn). She is obsessed with chassidish lifestyle and kids - which again is not intrinsically a problem, just that our family is very litvish. She has expressed that she would be ok shaving her head (again, only a problem since that is so far from our mesorah). She davens shacharis, mincha and maariv - again something beautiful for a single girl, except that we just found out that recently, when she was feeling unwell, she went to bed without davening maariv and therefore set her alarm clock to 4 am so that she could get in her maariv before morning! I do not think this is normal for a mainstream BY type girl. She learns in multiple chaburos with seminary friends.

We were planning on holding off shidduchim no matter what, so at least that's not a pressure yet. But it's very clear that she is not going to "come down" from her seminary la-la land. I'm concerned that she is not in a healthy place. While I'd love to have her speak with some rabbanim and rebbitzens in our community, I don't think it will help, since she sees them as "lower level" than the extreme rebbitzens she met in seminary and who she idolizes. She sees things as, and appreciates, very black and white.
My husband tried to have a conversation with her recently but I'm afraid it just strengthened her resolve to be more and "better" than our family and our community. I can't even imagine that any type of shidduch redt to her by anyone who knows us (and thinks they know her) will be "good enough" (ie frum, extreme enough) for her.

Do I just accept that she wants a life that is very, very different than ours? I am concerned that she is not in a healthy place, but at the same time, I'm sure the parents of baalei teshuva feel the same way. I'm afraid that if I fight for her to return to what we consider a "normal" and healthy frum place, that all I'll do is alienate her more. On the other hand, as a mother, I know that I need to make sure she is safe.

I have only 1 daughter, and I feel like I've lost her.

Didn’t read the rest of the responses but what you wrote is very concerning ocd like behavior. Even the girls who do come back from sem on a major high are not this extreme. I know someone who behaves similar to your daughter. I hope you can get her the right help. Hatzlacha ❤️

amother

↑ Crystal ↓

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:42 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Waking up at 4am to daven maariv doesn't sound extreme to any of you????

Has she had any mental health issues in the past?

Miley Cyrus has a song that's being played on secular radio non-stop. These are the lyrics:

"I know I used to be crazy
I know I used to be fun
You say I used to be wild
I say I used to be young"

For OP's daughter, wild and crazy is davening maariv at 4am and learning Yiddish.

I think Miley Cyrus also shaved her head 😜

amother

Birch

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:48 pm

amother Blue wrote:

Interesting how these girls try to be better in Adam lamakom and give up a little on Adam lachaveiro along the way..

Who says she is giving up bein Adam lachaveiro? OP says she is close to the family. And if you’re talking about not fully respecting the advice of community members who she considers a lower level-honestly this is a very high level of bein adam lchaveiro and it’s totally normal for a girl her age not to be on that level yet.

amother

Hosta

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 2:01 pm

whatever happens OP please dont let her get married until you are absolutely sure she is settled in whatever path she chooses.

amother

Sienna

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 2:05 pm

Send her to BP or Willi for a week. She will find out chasidim aren’t angels. (Not bashing here-don’t throw potatoes just being real.)

amother

Winterberry

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 2:21 pm

Ok, I'm on team weird. This sounds like too over the top to me. I think your discomfort is warranted. Can you call the principal of her seminary and discuss it with her? Maybe she's someone who can be in touch with your daughter and try to guide her. While "top frum" seminaries definitely push a right wing kollel agenda, most know that there are gradations because they accept girls from different communities! Cutting her hair shorter and shorter is weird because most BY girls I know are wearing their hair long. Unless they like the short look as a style, not as a frum thing. And wanting to shave her head without even knowing anyone in the chassidish community? Its just weird. You say that she's studies with groups of girls. What are her friends like? Does she have healthy relationships with them? This sounds like it needs a lot of time...

amother

Blonde

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 2:25 pm

amother Crystal wrote:

Again, IME if you encourage her to hang out more with the kind of people she is idealizing, she is more likely to find out more quickly whether she actually wants to be like them, or if she is just idealizing them based on false assumptions "they always get along, all their families are haply, things always work out well in their system" etc.

If you try to keep her away, she will keep fantasizing about them and nothing in your real community will measure up to her unreal fantasies about them.

But also, you said for a while she's veen wanting to be more frum, so maybe it really is a match for her.

I think this is really adding to the problem- she isn’t around people who she considers normal or good enough, so she’s not having any realistic down to earth interactions with people living that kind of life.

Can you be in touch with any of her mentors from seminary? Because this may be unlikely to resolve on its own.

amother

Topaz ↓

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 2:36 pm

Unfortunately, there isnt much you can do but daven for her and try to encourage her to follow her heart. It is possible that in a few months, she will have chilled out. Or it is possible that it will take years and a possible life crises for her to question everything. Either way, there is really nothing you can do except be there for her.

In seminary, everything is so black and white, so beautiful and glorious that it is very hard to imagine anything being wrong with a more extreme lifestyle. Girls are encouraged to make karbanos of themselves, honestly it can get toxic imho but it is what it is. I am one of the girls who was on a high after seminary, I felt like I had the answers to all of life's problems! I got married over a year after, I was still very much on that high but I am lucky I married a man who allows me space to figure things out.

keym ↓

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 2:38 pm

Please don't go behind her back contacting mentors or Rabbanim to talk to her
That can be very damaging.

I would sit down with her "sweetheart, I see you love this new world. I don't know enough. I don't know what is typical, what is unhealthy. I don't know how to help you grow to YOUR potential. Can we sit together with your Rav or teacher, or let's find a rav to sit with us. To help us help you find your path and community".
Work with her not behind her back.
But get things on the table.
Maybe she thinks that only chin length hair is acceptable. If the Rav tells her that she's ok, but she persists in cutting, then maybe you can raise OCD concerns.
As an example.

amother

↑ Midnight ↓

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 2:54 pm

amother Winterberry wrote:

Yes the cutting hair short thing is strange. Nobody advocates for that, maybe she is thinking of sheitel lengths. Pulling hair back into a pony instead of wearing loose, sure. But cutting hair short to be tznius is not a thing for single girls in mainstream circles. I guess my question is where she has gotten all these ideas from...none of them would be coming from the seminary itself. Did she meet a very extreme family there that she became close to? Like a burka adjacent family?

amother

↑ Crystal

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 3:00 pm

Is chin length hair unusual for single Litvish girls?

I'm just confused on why it would be an issue, as in mainstream secular culture (which I see on TV) and MO culture (which I'm a part of), short hair, chin-length and even shorter is considered totally normal.

↑ keym ↓

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 3:01 pm

amother Midnight wrote:

No it exists when the teachers aren't clear.
There's a quite a movement in the BY to cut a few inches
They mean from all the way down the back to shoulder length.
But the speeches aren't always clear.
AAnd girls do misunderstand, especially when there's not such an involved or understanding mentor.
Especially if she's listening to shiurim and not understanding the context because it's not her community

amother

Jean

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 3:02 pm

In seminary I had a conversation with a friend who said to me "I would totally be okay with marrying someone Chassidish " I thought she fell off the moon. She and I both fell into the category of going somewhat more to the right than our respective families. We are both naturally very Aidel and emesdik girls. The joke is that I actually married a self-made Chassid and her husband is about as Litvish as they come.

OP, I agree with those that said it's a fine line between her becoming more to the right and becoming extreme in a way that might be coming from a place that's not mentally healthy. Please however give her space and time to cool down, as anything that you do that she perceives as being against her will be met with pushback.

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