I have nothing with yom hashoa

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Tue, Apr 18 2023, 6:25 pm

Reality wrote:

Were any Rabbonim involved with setting the date of Yom Hashoah?

I recently learned that the reason many Ashkenazi communities have more stringent minhagim during sefirah is because they were also grieving for the Jewish communities decimated during the crusades. The Jews of Worms, Spyers and Mainz were slaughtered in the months of Iyar and Sivan. So many ashkenazim mourn those deaths, not only the deaths of Rabbi Akiva's students.

Isn't today the anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising? It makes sense to commemorate a day when so many Jews were murdered.

The problem is, Yom Hashoah ugevurah. To remember those who "fought back" and weren't "sheep."

LovesHashem ↓

Tue, Apr 18 2023, 9:43 pm

Rebesq wrote:

I would add that when we recaptured yerushayim im 1967 - everyone rejoiced. Frum, not frum, Charedi, datinleumi… we have an older friend who learned in Torah vadas who remembers the joyful singing and cheering by the hanhala. Rav Dessler discussed it in Michtav meeliyahu and only recently had it become politicized

Chareidim do acknowledge this day. Many go to the kosel and daven and thank hashem for having the ability to do so, it's much more acknowledged in Yerushalayim than other cities.

We may not put up Israeli flags or say hallel or outwardly celebrate this day in a way other groups do but it is acknowledged.

↑ etky ↓

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 1:27 am

zaq wrote:

Why not? The Holocaust didn't affect only Zionists. I would expect this demographic, assuming they are not observant but strongly affiliated Jewishly, to connect with it MORE, precisely because they connect to fewer observances such as Tish'a B'Av and do not identify with Yom Haatzmaut.

Is there a demographic that is non-Orthodox, strongly affiliated Jewishly, and apathetic or inimical to the State of Israel? I think there is. Leftists, mostly. (Hmmm. How much do they care about the Holocaust? IDK. I don't think I know, personally, anyone in this group. The nonOrthodox leftists I know are very much pro-Israel.)

I assume that they inherited identification with Yom Hashoah from their parents' and grandparents' generations for whom Israel was not yet a politically polarizing issue but rather a major constituent of their Jewish identity.
Yom Hashoah is a secular day of commemoration (as opposed to 10 Betevet which was set up by the Rabbanut as Yom Hakadish Haklali) that was conceived as a component of Israeli civic 'statehood' culture. I can see why communities for whom rejection of Israeli statehood is a religious identity marker would not identify with it.

ewwpeas20

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 1:36 am

etky wrote:

💯

↑ etky ↓

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 1:50 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Yom Hashoah is most definitely not seen as exclusively Israeli. It's commemorated all over the world.
I think that non-Zionist Jews, and maybe some Zionists too, have philosophical issues with it.

Of course it's not exclusively Israeli and not even exclusively Jewish anymore since it is also used by institutions outside of Israel, often in collaboration with Yad Vashem, as a platform to disseminate Holocaust education and awareness in general society.
But its origins are distinctly Israeli and secular, and it was conceived as a response to a need that arose when the Jewish state was created. Therefore it's not surprising that there are Jewish communities in which it did not take root.

essie14

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 3:06 am

mommy9 wrote:

It's not the Jewish way. We aren't supposed to have mourning in nisan. And then they do yom hatzmaut during sfira.

vicki wrote:

This statement literally hurts.
THEY?
DO?
When do you suggest "they" "do" Yom HaAtzmaut?

Maybe "they" should also "do" Chanukah at a time that's more covenient, instead of, oh I don't know, on the day the nes happened?

Mommy9, That comment is hurtful and promotes sinat chinam. A huge nes happened and we commemorate it on the day it happened.

salt

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 3:28 am

Yom Hashoah/Yom hazikaron are different to Yom Haazmaut /Yom yerushalayim.

Yom haatzmaut and yom yerushalyaim mark dates in history that according to some opinions, based in the gemarah, should be marked with thanksgiving and hallel (there are certain halachic conditions - as far as I learnt, they apply more certainly to Yom Yerushalyaim than to Yom Haaztmanut, since Am yisrael were actually saved from death on that day) but I don't know the details of the halachic discourse.

Yom hazikaron was set for the day before Yom Haatzmaut as a logical and significant time to mark it, to remember that in the merit of the fallen, we have a state - I don't think there is anything religious about Yom hazikaron, it's more national/official.

Yom Hashoah was chosen on the day of the Warsaw uprising - it's also not religious as far as I know. Yom kaddish klali is actually 10 Tevet, and 9 Av we traditionally remember all tragedies that befell the Jewish people.

Ridethewaves

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 3:40 am

The date of yom hashoa ugvura memorializes the Warsaw ghetto uprising where after a few days/weeks of fighting thousands of Jews died. The narrative takes away from the galus of the holocaust. It paints survivors as strong vs weak. Although we have many stories in Jewish history of courageous battles, we remember them as a nes and connection with HaShem.
I remember going through Poland and concentration camps years ago. The Warsaw uprising memorials stripped religion and HaShem from the equation and were seriously misguided. To make a holiday of that day seems offensive to me.

↑ Reality ↓

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 4:08 am

salt wrote:

I remember learning this as well. We all should be saying hallel on Yom Yerushalayim and it is a terrible lack of gratitude to Hashem to politicize Yom Yerushalayim.

Yom Haatzmaut is more problematic. I also don't remember all the details and if I am mistaken, I would be happy to be corrected. I do seem to recall that it is because it is the date that the State was declared versus the date the war was won. Halachically, we celebrate the victory not the beginning of the battle. Regardless, saying hallel without a bracha is a good compromise. Even stating a public thank you to Hashem for this wonderful gift He bestowed on the Jewish people would be great.

5mom ↓

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 6:46 am

mommy9 wrote:

It's not the Jewish way. We aren't supposed to have mourning in nisan. And then they do yom hatzmaut during sfira.

Sfira was originally a happy time, the chol hamoed between Pesach and Shavuos. Over the years, we've unfortunately had to commemorate the deaths of Rabbi Akiva's talmididm (fighting in the Bar Kochba rebellion) and then later, the Crusader massacres.

In recent generations, אשרינו שזכינו, the tide has turned and we now have national days of celebration and geula during this time period. It's up to us to recognize the miracles and mark sefira as it was intended to be.

↑ etky ↓

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 7:18 am

5mom wrote:

Sefira was also a time of tremendous yet cautious (since a late rain or other excessive weather phenomenon could ruin a harvest) anticipation from an agricultural point of view, that culminated with Shavuot, the harvest festival/ festival of the first fruits for which we would thank Hashem in the Mikdash.
This agricultural pattern echoes the build up to matan torah on Shavuot that began with the Exodus from Egypt on Pesach - the beginning of Hashem's relationship with Am Yisrael
Events of the past decades can also be seen to evoke this same feeling of cautious anticipation.
B'H we have a state, with Jerusalem as its capital, and be"h - if all goes well - this is a build up to a Geulah Shelemah that will culiminate with the rebuilding of the mikdash.

↑ Reality ↓

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 7:49 am

8x wrote:

To me it's like mother's day, I don't need a special day to remember my mother. Same with Yerushalayim and the Holocaust. It's part of my day to day identity.

There are halachic parameters regarding Yom Yerushalayim that have nothing to do with being a day of remembrance and the fact that as a religious Jew you remember Yerushalayim every day. Every Jew should consider Yom Yerushalayim a special day and we all should be saying Hallel. It is purely political that there are factions of religious Jews who don't say Hallel on Yom Yerushalayim.

DVOM

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 7:50 am

ora_43 wrote:

This.

You can't force sadness. But it's important to have official days of remembrance, and official rituals, because vanishingly few kids growing up today are going to have a strong personal connection to someone who lived through it and was old enough to remember. The question isn't just what we need for our own personal awareness of the Holocaust's significance, it's about our communities, and people being born another 80 years from now.

Slightly off topic, but growing up, I didn't have any relatives who survived the Holocaust. Three of my grandparents, all born in the late 19teens or early 1920s, were all born in the US or Canada. Of those three branches of the family, 2 of my great grandparents were born in America. My paternal grandfather was born in Germany, but immigrated with his family when he was a toddler. My great-grandmother had relatives who died in the triangle shirtwaist factory. My grandfather was an American army chaplain in WWII. I always felt very disconnected from the Holocaust. It was our collective Jewish history, but it wasn't my history.

When I married my husband I devoured his family's Holocaust stories. It meant so much to me to know that my children would be part of that heritage. I'm not sure why. Being persecuted and horrible suffering isn't anything to be proud of. But it does mean something to me that my children's great great grandparents were survivors.

Another aside: we have a recording of my husband's great aunt telling her own and and her sisters' (my husband's grandmother included) story of survival. The recording was done by her children in the 1970s. I'd never heard a Holocaust narrative like this one. I guess most of what I learned as a child and teen was whitewashed. Lots and lots of rape. Lots of people turning on each other- lying, stealing, even murder- in their efforts to survive. Plenty of suicide. I will play it for my boys one day, but not for a while yet.

↑ pinkpeonies

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 7:58 am

DVOM wrote:

That’s true that the atrocities were definitely white washed, but my grandfather, who also wrote his memoirs in great great detail, showed the other side as well. He was a tzaddik, through and through, who at great personal risk to himself and his health would go out of his way to help others. In the worst of the worst places, he would give his bread away to the person who stole his only portion of food the day before because “if he came to stealing, he must be even more hungry than I am.” He followed halacha throughout, and did everything in his power to help not only himself, but those around him. I don’t consider him just a survivor, but a hero. He emerged from the holocaust with his hashkafos rock solid and built generations of beautiful shomrei Torah umitzvos families.
Not everyone reduced themselves to animal like behavior, although I will be the first to say that there is only respect even for those who did. There is no way to know how we would act in a similar situation ch”v

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:16 am

etky wrote:

Maybe frum communities. But in the non-observant world, it has definitely taken root. Go to every US Federation site and Holocaust center to see local programming.
For so many non-observant Jews, the Holocaust is as far as they go back re Jewish history. It's often the launching point for further exploration.