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-> Parenting our children
amother
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 Sun, Nov 27 2022, 5:22 pm
Op sign up for Blimi Heller’s status on parenting. She is excellent and you will drop the need for rules, prizes and consequences fast.
Best Bubby, I’m sure you mean well but really the approach that your suggesting, maybe it was the thing to do when you were raising children. We now know that that method can be exceptionally harmful to children. Children are tender and have complex emotional needs and the ABA behavioral cold method of manipulating Children’s behavior can be quite cruel. Children need love, warmth and understanding and flexibility to thrive.
Children learn self regulation from being with adults self regulating. The worst thing to do when your child tantrums is to abandon them. Please don’t listen to that advice. I would explore why your child is having a hard time transitioning to the bigger school.
As an aside, if your sending your child to school with just a fruit besides for lunch, she is probably starving and that’s most likely most of the issue. Send much more snacks. Always trouble shoot your child’s physical needs before trying to be mechanech her.
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amother
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Sun, Nov 27 2022, 5:36 pm
OP you mentioned so many different things in your posts.
In my opinion, some of these behaviors need to be immediately stopped and some worked through.
For hitting and biting ( if I understood correctly that she is doing this) at 6 years old that is not ok. I would put the child directly in time out. If they don't go or physically fight it, then say please go sit over there, doesn't have to be in their room. Then when they ask you for something calmly repeat that until they go. For example, mommy can I have a drink? Sure sweetie but first go sit where I told you. Once they listen and are calm you explain that hitting is NEVER okay.
The next time they should go listen quicker until the behavior stops.
For saying NO when you ask her something first try switching the way you ask. For example instead of saying clean up your toys try saying come, let's clean up now. I would explain at a calm time that saying NO to a parent is not okay but asking a question is. She can say can you please help me, or can I do it soon, but never no.
For tantrums. why is she tantruming, what are some examples. Is she saying can I have a cookie and you say maybe soon, and then she tantrums? If that's the case then you need to explain to her when she is calm that you won't change your mind when she tantrums. If it's more like her coming home from school and just screaming then there needs to be much more love than ignoring. For example saying from now on when you come home from school I want you to come straight to the couch so we can cuddle.
You need to pay attention to the patterns. What's triggering her. When are the tantrums happening.
Best time to have a good convo is once they are calm after the behavior has ended.
Also asking their opinion works like what can we do when you tantrum?
Really all depends what's going on.
At 6 years old if she was never like this then very likely you need to start giving her lots of love because something is up. You mentioned she has piano lessons that she doesn't like doing....
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#BestBubby
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Sun, Nov 27 2022, 5:37 pm
All understanding and indulging of modern parenting.
Yet this generation has highest rate of suicide, mental illness , self hRm, eating disorders, ...
Not a success story
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amother
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Sun, Nov 27 2022, 5:46 pm
| #BestBubby wrote: | All understanding and indulging of modern parenting.
Yet this generation has highest rate of suicide, mental illness , self hRm, eating disorders, ...
Not a success story |
The last generation wasn’t a success story either unfortunately. We can only do the best we have with the knowledge that we have now. We know much better then the methods your touting.
BestBubby you can educate yourself and keep on learning about the best chinuch tools so you can keep yourself current and in tune to todays generation of youngsters.
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amother
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Sun, Nov 27 2022, 5:51 pm
BestBubby
The OP is asking about her 6/7 year old. You gave an example of your 3 year old not getting a cookie they wanted. Very different. And if you're going to hit them from exploding then locking yourself away is probably the best solution. And no one will argue that you don't try explaining to a 3 year old that their tantrum won't help while they're mid tantruming.
The OP also said that she thinks all of this new behavior is coming from her having a really hard time adjusting to school. I doubt you would just punish your child time and time again without also giving them tons of extra love is this was the case. Am I wrong?
It doesn't seem like you and other posters are on different pages, it is the way you explain your parenting methods that differ. You fail to mention any positive aspects just the consequences.
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BrisketBoss
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Sun, Nov 27 2022, 6:05 pm
| amother OP wrote: | Thanks all for replying.
To clarify all emotions are ok, and expressing them is ok too. It's how we express them that could be problematic. I keep reminding my kids that we talk with words, not our hands. That's problem number 1. She started talking with her hands and teeth.
Defiance. I ask her to clean up her toys. She'll just say no, and keep repeating the no time after time. I tell her to put her laundry in the hamper, come eat dinner, and get dressed in the morning, just a flat-out no.
I do not hit and I will not hit. That is not an option whatsoever.
BrisketBoss, I agree with you that things need to be explained. I have already talked till I'm blue in the face. There need to be some consequences. Notice I did not say punishment. As an adult, there are consequences for our actions.
Best Bubby I agree that very often tantrums are manipulation. Not always, but sometimes kids will use it to try to get you to change your mind instead of having conversations. Age appropriate at 2-4 years old. Not so much at 7.
She also switched to a large school for elementary from a really small preschool. Many of the behaviors could be from overwhelm and needing to find her place in the world. I still won't tolerate behaviors that can harm her or others. |
I did not recommend explaining anything, that must have been somebody else. In my history of giving parenting advice, it is very possible that I have never recommended such a thing, funny as that sounds. I recommended gathering information from your daughter and using it. Ross Greene discusses how to do that. In general I think "Raising Human Beings" or "The Explosive Child" could be a helpful read for you.
'Consequences' is usually a euphemism for punishments in this context. Even when parents read about and try to execute 'logical consequences,' their tone and/or language often gives them away and their children recognize it as a punishment and respond accordingly. True story.
If your child just switched schools, that can definitely help to explain her behavior. Good to know.
Last edited by BrisketBoss on Sun, Nov 27 2022, 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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nicole81
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Sun, Nov 27 2022, 6:05 pm
| #BestBubby wrote: | All understanding and indulging of modern parenting.
Yet this generation has highest rate of suicide, mental illness , self hRm, eating disorders, ...
Not a success story |
Don't you have kids that cut you out of their lives? Is that a success story? Your parenting advice is really off the mark and potentially damaging.
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taketwo
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Sun, Nov 27 2022, 6:07 pm
Op, I'm curious why did you mention in the op, that she doesn't like practicing for her piano lessons?
I think you may need to work more on the before the tantrums, versus how to deal with them once they're in effect.
What's causing them? How is she feeling? Is there a way to work with her before they happen? E.g. if they happen because she doesn't want to clean up her toy and doesn't like the consequence for not doing so, you need to think out of the box in how to get her to clean her stuff. That only be discussing at a calm time if she'd prefer to take out one toy and put it back before taking out the next toy or to be able to mix her toys but then have to sort them and put them all away afterwards. The latter is very overwhelming for that age, if she would prefer that you may need to work on setting up a fun system for that. It could be having bins for each group of toys, lining them up and then having a fun throwing in game while sitting on the floor. You could split it up into increments, 5 mins cleaning up, 5 mins cd, 5 mins clean up, 5 mins snack. Do it on a timer so she feels like the timer is in charge and doesn't get into a power struggle with you.
The most important part is discussing this all not in the moment. Giving her choices, asking her what will work for her. You're not asking her if she wants to clean up, you're asking her how she wants to clean up. You're stating it's a necessary evil she must get used to, what way would make it easiest for her.
I also agree on the 2 book recommendations above. You can also teach her more about expressing her emotions by reading her books about feelings, modeling talking out how you're feeling and just stating your observations how she looks, simply saying "you look furious right now" with emotion. I like the little spot of emotion books, by Diane alber, they're easy for kids to understand and give practical tips for them to deal themselves with those big emotions.
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#BestBubby
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Sun, Nov 27 2022, 6:15 pm
| nicole81 wrote: | | Don't you have kids that cut you out of their lives? Is that a success story? Your parenting advice is really off the mark and potentially damaging. |
No, I have a great relationship with my children, grandchildren and children in law, BH.
My children are financially independent, very frum and happily married, BH.
I consider that a success story.
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BrisketBoss
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Sun, Nov 27 2022, 6:18 pm
| nicole81 wrote: | | Don't you have kids that cut you out of their lives? Is that a success story? Your parenting advice is really off the mark and potentially damaging. |
I believe it's a sibling of hers that has such a situation.
I think BB probably did OK with her kids. And at the same time I fundamentally disagree with her on a lot, so I like to insert my own perspective.
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#BestBubby
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Sun, Nov 27 2022, 6:30 pm
| amother Natural wrote: | BestBubby
The OP also said that she thinks all of this new behavior is coming from her having a really hard time adjusting to school. I doubt you would just punish your child time and time again without also giving them tons of extra love is this was the case. Am I wrong?
It doesn't seem like you and other posters are on different pages, it is the way you explain your parenting methods that differ. You fail to mention any positive aspects just the consequences. |
I just saw about adjusting to new school, it wasn't in the original post.
In that case, OP can avoid making any demands until DD is more settled.
And it is incorrect that I did not suggest any positive aspects.
I also suggested taking DD out for ice cream or buying DD a new CD or crafts kit as reward for a week of good behavior.
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amother
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Sun, Nov 27 2022, 8:15 pm
Different approaches work for different types of children. Some children really do need the approach BestBubby describes. You have to know your child and what works best for them. Some feel safer with structure and clear boundaries and that is really what they are asking for when they are having the tantrum. A strong parent makes them feel grounded and safe.
Some children tantrum after school because they are tired or hungry. They aren’t aware enough to realize they are cranky because of tiredness etc. With my own child, I find if I offer them food, or a drink or to go rest, they are a new person after and the tantrum stops.
At 6 years old, they may be overstimulated and too much talking and discussing will make that even worse. Sometimes it helps to take them to a quiet dim empty room and just hold them or wait with them till they calm down.
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spikta
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Mon, Nov 28 2022, 5:55 am
My 2c:
If you feel like your daughter is going through something now, you'll both benefit greatly from giving her more attention and being more "on top of her".
That *doesn't* mean taking her out for ice cream. That means being more present with her during the day to day grind. If normally you could make dinner, wash dishes, deal with laundry, entertain the toddler, field work emails and just kind of manage your 6yo in the background, strongly consider dropping some things so you can be more present with her.
Sit down and do homework with her. Start picking up the toys and invite her to join you, rather than instructing her to do it on her own. Anything that you want her to do, don't call her from the other room and expect her to show up and do it on her own. Walk up to her, sit down next to her, give her a hug and ask a few questions about what she's doing, and only after a few minutes tell her that it's time for dinner. It's easy to ignore someone who yells at you from the other room. It's much harder to ignore someone who walks up to you and gives you a kiss and a squeeze and then makes a request.
Your priority is spending time with her. You're inviting her to help you pick up not because you want the toys cleaned, but because you like doing things with her. You're asking her to join you at dinner because you enjoy her company.
This is a big change if you're used to multitasking and having a tight schedule, so you'll have to plan appropriately. You may want to make dinner the night before so you just have to heat it up in the evening. You may want to wake up 5-10 minutes earlier so you can sit with her for a few minutes and cuddle and talk about the day before hitting the ground running.
This is a time investment, no question, but it pays huge dividends. You'll be much more attuned to her mental and emotional state, so you'll be able to identify flash points and avoid some tantrums. When she does tantrum, it will bother you less, because you'll know that you've earmarked this time for her. Helping her work through a tantrum is not a waste of time! It's parenting time well spent and investment in her future emotional health. When you spend more time with her, she'll talk more and you'll learn more about where she's holding. She'll suddenly remember things from school at random times and you'll be there to hear.
You don't need this intensity of connection for the rest of your life, but a couple of weeks like that can work wonders. And after trying it for a couple of weeks you may decide that it's a much more pleasant way to live your life and enjoy your children 
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amother
Ghostwhite
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Mon, Nov 28 2022, 6:11 am
6 yrs old is not too old for a chart
It could be a family thing with each child having their own chart
Prize can be staying up later, or a story by you or DH,
There should be a daily prize and a weekly prize, special just for them
Positive re enforcement
SUPER Praise the desired behavior, every single time
COMPLETELY ignore the undesired behavior
Saying to her “I’m not listening” is still giving attention to the undesired behavior
That means if you need to walk away from the area , do so
CLEAR POSTED RULES AND EXPECTATIONS
Watch super nanny
IMHO - her methods work even though some ppl will say it’s old fashioned
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taketwo
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Mon, Nov 28 2022, 6:37 am
| spikta wrote: | My 2c:
If you feel like your daughter is going through something now, you'll both benefit greatly from giving her more attention and being more "on top of her".
That *doesn't* mean taking her out for ice cream. That means being more present with her during the day to day grind. If normally you could make dinner, wash dishes, deal with laundry, entertain the toddler, field work emails and just kind of manage your 6yo in the background, strongly consider dropping some things so you can be more present with her.
Sit down and do homework with her. Start picking up the toys and invite her to join you, rather than instructing her to do it on her own. Anything that you want her to do, don't call her from the other room and expect her to show up and do it on her own. Walk up to her, sit down next to her, give her a hug and ask a few questions about what she's doing, and only after a few minutes tell her that it's time for dinner. It's easy to ignore someone who yells at you from the other room. It's much harder to ignore someone who walks up to you and gives you a kiss and a squeeze and then makes a request.
Your priority is spending time with her. You're inviting her to help you pick up not because you want the toys cleaned, but because you like doing things with her. You're asking her to join you at dinner because you enjoy her company.
This is a big change if you're used to multitasking and having a tight schedule, so you'll have to plan appropriately. You may want to make dinner the night before so you just have to heat it up in the evening. You may want to wake up 5-10 minutes earlier so you can sit with her for a few minutes and cuddle and talk about the day before hitting the ground running.
This is a time investment, no question, but it pays huge dividends. You'll be much more attuned to her mental and emotional state, so you'll be able to identify flash points and avoid some tantrums. When she does tantrum, it will bother you less, because you'll know that you've earmarked this time for her. Helping her work through a tantrum is not a waste of time! It's parenting time well spent and investment in her future emotional health. When you spend more time with her, she'll talk more and you'll learn more about where she's holding. She'll suddenly remember things from school at random times and you'll be there to hear.
You don't need this intensity of connection for the rest of your life, but a couple of weeks like that can work wonders. And after trying it for a couple of weeks you may decide that it's a much more pleasant way to live your life and enjoy your children |
I love this advice! I think we could all use this reminder sometimes. Being present does wonders!
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amother
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Mon, Nov 28 2022, 8:56 am
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Na don’t do charts. Give her attention and get in tune with her emotional needs.
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amother
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Mon, Nov 28 2022, 8:56 am
| amother Ghostwhite wrote: | 6 yrs old is not too old for a chart
It could be a family thing with each child having their own chart
Prize can be staying up later, or a story by you or DH,
There should be a daily prize and a weekly prize, special just for them
Positive re enforcement
SUPER Praise the desired behavior, every single time
COMPLETELY ignore the undesired behavior
Saying to her “I’m not listening” is still giving attention to the undesired behavior
That means if you need to walk away from the area , do so
CLEAR POSTED RULES AND EXPECTATIONS
Watch super nanny
IMHO - her methods work even though some ppl will say it’s old fashioned |
This is a very behavioral approach. Really not a fan.
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amother
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Mon, Nov 28 2022, 8:57 am
| spikta wrote: | My 2c:
If you feel like your daughter is going through something now, you'll both benefit greatly from giving her more attention and being more "on top of her".
That *doesn't* mean taking her out for ice cream. That means being more present with her during the day to day grind. If normally you could make dinner, wash dishes, deal with laundry, entertain the toddler, field work emails and just kind of manage your 6yo in the background, strongly consider dropping some things so you can be more present with her.
Sit down and do homework with her. Start picking up the toys and invite her to join you, rather than instructing her to do it on her own. Anything that you want her to do, don't call her from the other room and expect her to show up and do it on her own. Walk up to her, sit down next to her, give her a hug and ask a few questions about what she's doing, and only after a few minutes tell her that it's time for dinner. It's easy to ignore someone who yells at you from the other room. It's much harder to ignore someone who walks up to you and gives you a kiss and a squeeze and then makes a request.
Your priority is spending time with her. You're inviting her to help you pick up not because you want the toys cleaned, but because you like doing things with her. You're asking her to join you at dinner because you enjoy her company.
This is a big change if you're used to multitasking and having a tight schedule, so you'll have to plan appropriately. You may want to make dinner the night before so you just have to heat it up in the evening. You may want to wake up 5-10 minutes earlier so you can sit with her for a few minutes and cuddle and talk about the day before hitting the ground running.
This is a time investment, no question, but it pays huge dividends. You'll be much more attuned to her mental and emotional state, so you'll be able to identify flash points and avoid some tantrums. When she does tantrum, it will bother you less, because you'll know that you've earmarked this time for her. Helping her work through a tantrum is not a waste of time! It's parenting time well spent and investment in her future emotional health. When you spend more time with her, she'll talk more and you'll learn more about where she's holding. She'll suddenly remember things from school at random times and you'll be there to hear.
You don't need this intensity of connection for the rest of your life, but a couple of weeks like that can work wonders. And after trying it for a couple of weeks you may decide that it's a much more pleasant way to live your life and enjoy your children |
Amazing advice! Thanks so much!
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seltzermom
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Mon, Nov 28 2022, 9:16 am
| spikta wrote: | My 2c:
If you feel like your daughter is going through something now, you'll both benefit greatly from giving her more attention and being more "on top of her".
That *doesn't* mean taking her out for ice cream. That means being more present with her during the day to day grind. If normally you could make dinner, wash dishes, deal with laundry, entertain the toddler, field work emails and just kind of manage your 6yo in the background, strongly consider dropping some things so you can be more present with her.
Sit down and do homework with her. Start picking up the toys and invite her to join you, rather than instructing her to do it on her own. Anything that you want her to do, don't call her from the other room and expect her to show up and do it on her own. Walk up to her, sit down next to her, give her a hug and ask a few questions about what she's doing, and only after a few minutes tell her that it's time for dinner. It's easy to ignore someone who yells at you from the other room. It's much harder to ignore someone who walks up to you and gives you a kiss and a squeeze and then makes a request.
Your priority is spending time with her. You're inviting her to help you pick up not because you want the toys cleaned, but because you like doing things with her. You're asking her to join you at dinner because you enjoy her company.
This is a big change if you're used to multitasking and having a tight schedule, so you'll have to plan appropriately. You may want to make dinner the night before so you just have to heat it up in the evening. You may want to wake up 5-10 minutes earlier so you can sit with her for a few minutes and cuddle and talk about the day before hitting the ground running.
This is a time investment, no question, but it pays huge dividends. You'll be much more attuned to her mental and emotional state, so you'll be able to identify flash points and avoid some tantrums. When she does tantrum, it will bother you less, because you'll know that you've earmarked this time for her. Helping her work through a tantrum is not a waste of time! It's parenting time well spent and investment in her future emotional health. When you spend more time with her, she'll talk more and you'll learn more about where she's holding. She'll suddenly remember things from school at random times and you'll be there to hear.
You don't need this intensity of connection for the rest of your life, but a couple of weeks like that can work wonders. And after trying it for a couple of weeks you may decide that it's a much more pleasant way to live your life and enjoy your children |
I love this. Thanks for this reminder. There is nothing more healing than real presence. At the end of the day this is what we crave and need.
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mom24b
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Mon, Nov 28 2022, 2:29 pm
This is SO hard! I feel for you. This is not an easy thing to deal with and the explosions always seem to happen at the worst times!! I totally get you. You wish you could find the magic trick to restore the peace and tranquility in your home and see your sweet, happy, kind, loving ,cute, adorable daughter at her best!
When she is extremely upset and dysregulated she needs your calm , love and support to help her calm. Leaving her to herself in her times of distress increases distress. She needs someone to soothe her and help her calm. “Go to your room and calm down “ doesn’t work if you have never taught them how to calm.
Luckily she enjoys the exact things that are often recommended to help one calm themselves! Arts and crafts, reading, listening to cds are some of THE BEST methods to self-regulate and calm oneself. It is precisely at times of her upset and distress these things should be offered to help her calm.
After soothing, validating and recognizing her feelings, offer her one of the above methods to relax. It could sound something like this
“ I see how upset you are that I asked you to put your clothes in the hamper” I know you have had such a hard long day, you probably just want to relax” It’s really frustrating. Why don’t you quickly throw the clothes in the hamper and then get a book to read or do some beading….” I’m sorry. I know its upsetting to you, I wish we could just snap our fingers and the clothes would fly into the basket themselves. Let’s see if that will work, if not quickly throw them in and I’ll get you a hot drink to relax with, while you listen to a cd or read a book….”
It is very possible she will refuse this and tantrum more if she’s too angry and dysregulated. That would be normal and understandable. It means she needs more soothing NOT a consequence! I fear the fact that you are attempting to deal with her tantrums/“defiance” with consequences is actually increasing her behaviors. Her tantrums/“defiance” is her way of communicating her distress. She needs to feel understood and supported.
When you are upset who do you turn to? Most likely the person you feel understands you best and always knows how to make you feel better. If your upset and your husband tells you to stay away from him until your in a better mood , I’m guessing you would be angrier at him. The same is true for your daughter. Telling her she has to go away when she is upset is no different then your spouse telling you to go away from him until your in a good mood again. The same way you need to be understood and supported when your upset, so does your daughter.
If the poster who suggests that tantrums are a form of “manipulation “ is correct , then ask yourself why does my daughter feel a need to be manipulative? Ppl don’t manipulate unless they are desperate for something and have no other alternative but to be manipulative to get their need met. I’m not by any means agreeing that the tantrums are a form of manipulation. I am only saying EVEN IF that was the case it would be because the child feels they must manipulate in order for them to be seen and their needs met .
I am sure you want your daughter to feel loved, supported, safe, cared for, and trust her needs will be met. I know it’s extremely difficult to deal with tantrums. It grates on the nerves, trust me I know. If you can shift your thoughts from judgement to understanding the tantrums will become much easier to deal with and tolerate. I’m sure you have tried to discuss the issue with her but what was your goal in those discussions? To identify the cause and stop the behaviors or to understand and support your child? You will not be successful if your true intentions are to stop the behaviors. The behaviors will automatically stop when your child’s needs are met and they feel safe and supported in their times of distress. It sounds from your post like this is fairly new behaviors she is displaying which is extremely concerning. There is MOST definitely a reason. Is there anything different going on at home? Have you moved recently, had a baby, any change occurred with a sibling or even a friend? Regardless of wether you are able to pinpoint the cause , the cure is most definitely to give her extra support and security (especially during her tantrums, hold her , sit with her, offer her means of soothing)not consequences.
I’m not saying you should give her what she wants . I’m saying you should be loving, understanding and soothing, Supporting her through her distress of not getting what she wants and helping her find ways to soothe herself, a cup of hot cocoa while reading, some craft supplies, a cd she loves…. Please please do not remove these things from her and most DEFINITELY NEVER utilize food as a means of reward/punishment that is extremely damaging and can cause long term psychological damage including eating disorders.
There is no reason to give a consequence to a child that is upset . I fear doing so will only increase the very behaviors you are trying to stop. The best thing you can do is be supportive and understanding and start to see your child’s behaviors as a need for safety, security, love and support. When you start to see your child differently, you will see a different child!
Ps ABA methods do not teach a person how to regulate and calm themselves . It may seemingly improve the targeted behavior but if the need behind the behavior isn’t met the need will display in other behaviors.
Most importantly be kind and patient to both yourself and your daughter especially in times of her upset. This is no magic trick either it takes a lot of love, focus and patience but will be worth it in the long run . For both of you!
Last edited by mom24b on Mon, Nov 28 2022, 5:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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