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Not_in_my_town
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 Tue, Aug 02 2022, 12:07 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | Thank you all for your help, input and thoughts! I think we're going to get one! |
Is there anything specifically you're looking for in a dog? I think several of us here could guide you to the right breed, if you want a purebred.
Each dog breed has specific temperament qualities, grooming needs, exercise requirements, etc.
A really good first dog that is great with kids and smaller in size but acts like a big dog is the West Highland White Terrier. Their only issue is that you have take grooming a bit more seriously as they have longer fur which needs a good brushing, twice a week or so, as well as periodic trims. But they are rough and tumble little terriers that handle kids. They even have tails that are unique bred to withstand tail-pulling! 
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Not_in_my_town
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 12:12 am
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Oh, and I highly recommend watching some Cesar Milan videos to learn about energy and training, because a dog senses if you have the confidence to be the leader of the pack or not. If not, the balance can shift, and dogs can become ill behaved and aggressive, believing they have to lead and protect and make decisions. Dog pyschology is really important to understand, at least a little, in order to have a well-behaved pet.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 12:17 am
I'm not going to start arguing about why but you are going to limit who will come to your house if you have a dog. Play dates, shabbos guests, neighbors. Some people will love it and be more likely to come, others will stay away. But be aware that it's a real change, even in a more mixed OOT community.
Having a dog is absolutely work, energy, effort and money. You might think that it's worth the benefits but some dogs are needier than others and the responsibility for a dog chewing up or eating your stuff, throwing up, licking food on the counter, going to the vet, needing to be walked/let out no matter the weather or if it's convenient for you tends to fall on the mother. If it doesn't for you or you don't care, great. But it often does. Maybe some of this is mitigated by choosing a breed and age very carefully.
Even the whole discussion on halachos regarding pets is complicated. Let's say you look into it and find that your rav says XYZ is mutar, there are still people who don't feel that way and it is what it is in our communities.
I like dogs, grew up with them, have no fear of them but I still dislike the culture of having a pet as part of your family. To me, it feels very non jewish. It's hard to convey my tone in writing but I'm really just trying to be honest in a non judgemental way. If you want a dog and if works for your family, then do what works best for you! I'm not a conformist and I don't think all families are the same or need to be the same. I'm just basing this off of what I see from friends and neighbors who have dogs. It has positives but it also has negatives and some of those negatives in the frum world are going to be things like 'it's non jewish' or 'halachically probablematic' or 'unclean/tamay/not proper for a Jewish family' and there's no arguing with those kinds of feelings. And a dog is a long term commitment.
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 2:17 am
| amother [ Iris ] wrote: | | A family with a lot of kids wouldn’t really want a dog because it’s another mouth to feed and another being to care for. And once most people don’t do it, it looks strange for someone to break the norm. I find in frum communities where people tend to have fewer kids they often do have dogs. | I know a few large families who have dogs. Its not done in certain communities, but where I live, in a dati leumi community, even some large families (and I mean more than 7 children) have dogs. Every other house has a dog. I personally think its a wonderful thing to have a dog. We do as well. Its only been very positive on our family that we got one. And she was a rescue, from a shelter, she was abused, so we brought her much needed love as well.
We davka got a dog that was already trained (that was my only "must" when we went to the shelter) and in terms of financials, its not all that much. We take the dog to get groomed twice a year. Then there is food and shots. NOthing else to really spend on. And shots are not every year. And food is not every month (it comes in big bags here). Id say it was about but probably less than, 1000 shekels a year for our dog.
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Elfrida
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 4:22 am
I don't have dogs, but I do have cats, and on a daily basis they cost even less than dogs. They are smaller, so they eat less.
The exception is, that they can get sick or injured, and veterinary care for a sick animal can become expensive. It might sound ridiculous, but especially as an animal gets older it is worth taking out some kind of veterinary health insurance for them.
Food you can really spend as much as you like. Generally it doesn't have to be expensive, but I had one cat with a lot of allergies, and she needed expensive food. There's a lot of variation in prices.
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amother
Amaryllis
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 6:32 am
Previous dog owner here. We loved ours (died of old age). I dont want another but that is because I dont have the space or time- I live in an apartment, work full time etc. Maybe one day in the future.
We got a shelter/rescue dog. We saved it from being killed which is a great feeling. And was totally unique. They also did the spay/neuter thing before we got the dog so we didnt have to worry about doing that. (Ask a shaila about if you can get it done yourself).
Some people were scared but we had put the dog in another room while they were over.
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amother
Teal
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 7:17 am
| amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote: | I'm not going to start arguing about why but you are going to limit who will come to your house if you have a dog. Play dates, shabbos guests, neighbors. Some people will love it and be more likely to come, others will stay away. But be aware that it's a real change, even in a more mixed OOT community.
Having a dog is absolutely work, energy, effort and money. You might think that it's worth the benefits but some dogs are needier than others and the responsibility for a dog chewing up or eating your stuff, throwing up, licking food on the counter, going to the vet, needing to be walked/let out no matter the weather or if it's convenient for you tends to fall on the mother. If it doesn't for you or you don't care, great. But it often does. Maybe some of this is mitigated by choosing a breed and age very carefully.
Even the whole discussion on halachos regarding pets is complicated. Let's say you look into it and find that your rav says XYZ is mutar, there are still people who don't feel that way and it is what it is in our communities.
I like dogs, grew up with them, have no fear of them but I still dislike the culture of having a pet as part of your family. To me, it feels very non jewish. It's hard to convey my tone in writing but I'm really just trying to be honest in a non judgemental way. If you want a dog and if works for your family, then do what works best for you! I'm not a conformist and I don't think all families are the same or need to be the same. I'm just basing this off of what I see from friends and neighbors who have dogs. It has positives but it also has negatives and some of those negatives in the frum world are going to be things like 'it's non jewish' or 'halachically probablematic' or 'unclean/tamay/not proper for a Jewish family' and there's no arguing with those kinds of feelings. And a dog is a long term commitment. |
This this this!!!
I grew up with a dog and I really think it was the worst thing ever. Yes, there are pros, but there are so many more cons.
It ruined my social life. So many people didn’t want to come over because they were scared. I couldn’t host any class events for the same reason. Just not worth it.
And yes, you really don’t know the temperament of the dog you’re going to get. My dog turned out to not like kids very much. When families would come over for shabbos we’d have to stress to the kids not to bother the dog etc. It was just a hassle.
Didn’t teach us responsibility either. It just taught us that it’s annoying to have a dog
This is just my experience. I’d never get a dog again. Unless it was a short term experience for my kids like foster care.
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 7:24 am
| amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote: | I'm not going to start arguing about why but you are going to limit who will come to your house if you have a dog. Play dates, shabbos guests, neighbors. Some people will love it and be more likely to come, others will stay away. But be aware that it's a real change, even in a more mixed OOT community.
Having a dog is absolutely work, energy, effort and money. You might think that it's worth the benefits but some dogs are needier than others and the responsibility for a dog chewing up or eating your stuff, throwing up, licking food on the counter, going to the vet, needing to be walked/let out no matter the weather or if it's convenient for you tends to fall on the mother. If it doesn't for you or you don't care, great. But it often does. Maybe some of this is mitigated by choosing a breed and age very carefully.
Even the whole discussion on halachos regarding pets is complicated. Let's say you look into it and find that your rav says XYZ is mutar, there are still people who don't feel that way and it is what it is in our communities.
I like dogs, grew up with them, have no fear of them but I still dislike the culture of having a pet as part of your family. To me, it feels very non jewish. It's hard to convey my tone in writing but I'm really just trying to be honest in a non judgemental way. If you want a dog and if works for your family, then do what works best for you! I'm not a conformist and I don't think all families are the same or need to be the same. I'm just basing this off of what I see from friends and neighbors who have dogs. It has positives but it also has negatives and some of those negatives in the frum world are going to be things like 'it's non jewish' or 'halachically probablematic' or 'unclean/tamay/not proper for a Jewish family' and there's no arguing with those kinds of feelings. And a dog is a long term commitment. | From all of what you are saying, it really depends on your community. We are in a dati leumi yishuv. Nobody hasnt come over because we have a dog. My child's friends, for those that are nervous, we make sure to have the dog in a place where those friends wont be in contact. But it is not something that limits any social activities where we live. So many families have dogs here. In terms of the work that is needed for a dog, NO, the responsibility should never fall on one person. If it does then things have to change. In our home, and the people we know who have dogs, its a family affair in that everyone walks the dog, everyone gives food when they are around. Im sorry this is what you have seen, but that is not my experience or the people we know.
What about having a dog feels non jewish? YOu do know that back in the shtetl many families had dogs, no? And Im talking about frum families.
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amother
Pear
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 7:47 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | I would really love to get a dog. My kids are in mainstream frum schools. Our family is pretty mainstream too. Im seriously considering getting a dog and would love to hear your thoughts. Why do you think it isnt typically accepted for Frum people to have dogs? Is it just different? |
How about a cat? I think that's more acceptable.
I just heard on the radio that many dogs and cats were put to sleep during 2021 because people simply couldn't afford them anymore. Sadly it was a choice between raising and feeding a family or the pets. Having a pet is very costly, forget about what other people are thinking.
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watergirl
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 8:07 am
| amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote: | I'm not going to start arguing about why but you are going to limit who will come to your house if you have a dog. Play dates, shabbos guests, neighbors. Some people will love it and be more likely to come, others will stay away. But be aware that it's a real change, even in a more mixed OOT community.
Having a dog is absolutely work, energy, effort and money. You might think that it's worth the benefits but some dogs are needier than others and the responsibility for a dog chewing up or eating your stuff, throwing up, licking food on the counter, going to the vet, needing to be walked/let out no matter the weather or if it's convenient for you tends to fall on the mother. If it doesn't for you or you don't care, great. But it often does. Maybe some of this is mitigated by choosing a breed and age very carefully.
Even the whole discussion on halachos regarding pets is complicated. Let's say you look into it and find that your rav says XYZ is mutar, there are still people who don't feel that way and it is what it is in our communities.
I like dogs, grew up with them, have no fear of them but I still dislike the culture of having a pet as part of your family. To me, it feels very non jewish. It's hard to convey my tone in writing but I'm really just trying to be honest in a non judgemental way. If you want a dog and if works for your family, then do what works best for you! I'm not a conformist and I don't think all families are the same or need to be the same. I'm just basing this off of what I see from friends and neighbors who have dogs. It has positives but it also has negatives and some of those negatives in the frum world are going to be things like 'it's non jewish' or 'halachically probablematic' or 'unclean/tamay/not proper for a Jewish family' and there's no arguing with those kinds of feelings. And a dog is a long term commitment. |
Like I said before, I am a life long dog owner. I have very literally never once encountered anyone who would not come into our house, and this includes our rav from Israel. One or two people have been a bit hesitant at first and then they are fine. No one has just stam not come over. And if so, then fine. Everyone has their boundaries and I respect it. For me, the emotional benefits of having dogs very greatly outweighs any drawbacks.
Is it a long term commitment? Yup. So?
Work, energy, money... depends on the dog. One of my dogs costs us a whopping $25 every six weeks for a bag of food and about $100 every three years for shots. BH she has been very healthy and she is 12. My other dog is a special situation that I am not going to go into here because it will out me, but it's also not more than $20/month for food and the same $100 every three years for shots.
Energy for a dog? It's the best. It means I get out and moving. My kids get out and moving.
None of my dogs has ever chewed anything that does not belong to them. I know some do, but that's on the owner to train them out of it.
Halachos - I spoke to a dayan (not the chassidish meaning of the word, but a dayan who has that level smicha and is a dayan in a beis din) who himself has a dog. He taught me the halachos when I became a BT and needed to know.
My kids have absolutely learned a great deal from having dogs.
- You have to feed your pets before you feed yourselves = compassion, responsibility, halacha, achrayis.
- You have to know how to feed the dog on Pesach (we use acceptable food year round) = showing the kids that there is room in halacha for pets.
- Did you know there is an inyan to feed dogs BETTER food on pesach as a thank you because they did not bark when we left Mitzrayim? My kids LOVE this. So do I.
Fun fact - when Adam HaRishon named the dog, he chose Celev because a dog is K'Lev - like his heart.
To each their own! You don't want one, please do not get one! You are uncomfortable around them? I respect you! You are free not to come over.
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watergirl
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 8:10 am
| imasinger wrote: | | Those who own dogs, how did you handle the spay/neuter issue? |
Firstly, this is yet one of many reasons to get a dog from the shelter as opposed to a breeder - in America, all shelter dogs are already spayed/neutered before they can be adopted out so that issue is already taken care of for you.
The one time I had a puppy who needed to be spayed, I asked my LOR and he told me to sell the dog to the non-Jewish vet just like we do with chametz, and then to buy it back after. The vet didn't even blink (and this was in a one-minyan town with very very few frum Jews) because vets are just happy people are doing it at all.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 9:18 am
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | From all of what you are saying, it really depends on your community. We are in a dati leumi yishuv. Nobody hasnt come over because we have a dog. My child's friends, for those that are nervous, we make sure to have the dog in a place where those friends wont be in contact. But it is not something that limits any social activities where we live. So many families have dogs here. In terms of the work that is needed for a dog, NO, the responsibility should never fall on one person. If it does then things have to change. In our home, and the people we know who have dogs, its a family affair in that everyone walks the dog, everyone gives food when they are around. Im sorry this is what you have seen, but that is not my experience or the people we know.
What about having a dog feels non jewish? YOu do know that back in the shtetl many families had dogs, no? And Im talking about frum families. |
You're right, it is community specific and I should have mentioned that. I'm speaking as someone in a large OOT community in America where having a dog has become much more common in the last 3-5 years.
I know that in the shtetl many families had dogs. From my understanding (based on what my grandparents and great grandparents have told me) it was more how rural families have pets that are loved but spend more time outdoors and aren't treated like babies in the family. I'm not sure how to explain it well but there's something about the way that urban and suburban families in the US treat their dogs that rubs me the wrong way in terms of priorities or attitude and when mainstream frum families get a dog, it reminds me of that.
Again, I'm not trying to give logical arguments against, just giving a perspective in case someone hadn't thought about it and wanted to consider.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 9:24 am
| watergirl wrote: | Like I said before, I am a life long dog owner. I have very literally never once encountered anyone who would not come into our house, and this includes our rav from Israel. One or two people have been a bit hesitant at first and then they are fine. No one has just stam not come over. And if so, then fine. Everyone has their boundaries and I respect it. For me, the emotional benefits of having dogs very greatly outweighs any drawbacks.
Is it a long term commitment? Yup. So?
Work, energy, money... depends on the dog. One of my dogs costs us a whopping $25 every six weeks for a bag of food and about $100 every three years for shots. BH she has been very healthy and she is 12. My other dog is a special situation that I am not going to go into here because it will out me, but it's also not more than $20/month for food and the same $100 every three years for shots.
Energy for a dog? It's the best. It means I get out and moving. My kids get out and moving.
None of my dogs has ever chewed anything that does not belong to them. I know some do, but that's on the owner to train them out of it.
Halachos - I spoke to a dayan (not the chassidish meaning of the word, but a dayan who has that level smicha and is a dayan in a beis din) who himself has a dog. He taught me the halachos when I became a BT and needed to know.
My kids have absolutely learned a great deal from having dogs.
- You have to feed your pets before you feed yourselves = compassion, responsibility, halacha, achrayis.
- You have to know how to feed the dog on Pesach (we use acceptable food year round) = showing the kids that there is room in halacha for pets.
- Did you know there is an inyan to feed dogs BETTER food on pesach as a thank you because they did not bark when we left Mitzrayim? My kids LOVE this. So do I.
Fun fact - when Adam HaRishon named the dog, he chose Celev because a dog is K'Lev - like his heart.
To each their own! You don't want one, please do not get one! You are uncomfortable around them? I respect you! You are free not to come over. |
This is a great perspective and I'm glad having dogs has been a meaningful part of your life! You laid it out thoughtfully and I was trying to do the same because, as I'm sure we've both seen, there are many pet owners who take the plunge and get a dog without thinking about it from all angles and didn't realize what's really involved. When I say it's a long term commitment, that's why. Because you can't just get tired of it and move on. If you're planning to have more kids and it'll be too much with a baby or you're doing it for your kids and they're going to be out of the house soon or you always wanted a dog because it's cute, cuddly companionship but you didn't realize that your dog will have its own personality and may not be so low maintenance it's worth to think about how you don't outgrow having a dog.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 9:30 am
| amother [ Bluebonnet ] wrote: | | Are you getting a puppy? They require training. Dogs are smart though and they pick it up quickly. I never got a puppy, I got full grown (I’m on my 3rd) each time so wouldn’t have to deal with training. |
Puppy for us! But I hope to get an in home trainer to help.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 9:31 am
| Not_in_my_town wrote: | | Oh, and I highly recommend watching some Cesar Milan videos to learn about energy and training, because a dog senses if you have the confidence to be the leader of the pack or not. If not, the balance can shift, and dogs can become ill behaved and aggressive, believing they have to lead and protect and make decisions. Dog pyschology is really important to understand, at least a little, in order to have a well-behaved pet. |
Thanks!
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watergirl
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 9:36 am
| amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote: | | This is a great perspective and I'm glad having dogs has been a meaningful part of your life! You laid it out thoughtfully and I was trying to do the same because, as I'm sure we've both seen, there are many pet owners who take the plunge and get a dog without thinking about it from all angles and didn't realize what's really involved. When I say it's a long term commitment, that's why. Because you can't just get tired of it and move on. If you're planning to have more kids and it'll be too much with a baby or you're doing it for your kids and they're going to be out of the house soon or you always wanted a dog because it's cute, cuddly companionship but you didn't realize that your dog will have its own personality and may not be so low maintenance it's worth to think about how you don't outgrow having a dog. |
I agree with you here 100%!!!! I predicted, and was sadly right, that after the covid 18 months (when so many people were home), the shelters would be full of covid pups and I was right. Not a cost issue, rather people jumped into dog ownership because they were home all day and now are out again and their regular life leaves no time for a dog. We have had a dog for so long, nothing changed for us or for the dogs.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 9:37 am
| watergirl wrote: | Like I said before, I am a life long dog owner. I have very literally never once encountered anyone who would not come into our house, and this includes our rav from Israel. One or two people have been a bit hesitant at first and then they are fine. No one has just stam not come over. And if so, then fine. Everyone has their boundaries and I respect it. For me, the emotional benefits of having dogs very greatly outweighs any drawbacks.
Is it a long term commitment? Yup. So?
Work, energy, money... depends on the dog. One of my dogs costs us a whopping $25 every six weeks for a bag of food and about $100 every three years for shots. BH she has been very healthy and she is 12. My other dog is a special situation that I am not going to go into here because it will out me, but it's also not more than $20/month for food and the same $100 every three years for shots.
Energy for a dog? It's the best. It means I get out and moving. My kids get out and moving.
None of my dogs has ever chewed anything that does not belong to them. I know some do, but that's on the owner to train them out of it.
Halachos - I spoke to a dayan (not the chassidish meaning of the word, but a dayan who has that level smicha and is a dayan in a beis din) who himself has a dog. He taught me the halachos when I became a BT and needed to know.
My kids have absolutely learned a great deal from having dogs.
- You have to feed your pets before you feed yourselves = compassion, responsibility, halacha, achrayis.
- You have to know how to feed the dog on Pesach (we use acceptable food year round) = showing the kids that there is room in halacha for pets.
- Did you know there is an inyan to feed dogs BETTER food on pesach as a thank you because they did not bark when we left Mitzrayim? My kids LOVE this. So do I.
Fun fact - when Adam HaRishon named the dog, he chose Celev because a dog is K'Lev - like his heart.
To each their own! You don't want one, please do not get one! You are uncomfortable around them? I respect you! You are free not to come over. |
I love this!! Thank you!!
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amother
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 9:41 am
| amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote: | You're right, it is community specific and I should have mentioned that. I'm speaking as someone in a large OOT community in America where having a dog has become much more common in the last 3-5 years.
I know that in the shtetl many families had dogs. From my understanding (based on what my grandparents and great grandparents have told me) it was more how rural families have pets that are loved but spend more time outdoors and aren't treated like babies in the family. I'm not sure how to explain it well but there's something about the way that urban and suburban families in the US treat their dogs that rubs me the wrong way in terms of priorities or attitude and when mainstream frum families get a dog, it reminds me of that.
Again, I'm not trying to give logical arguments against, just giving a perspective in case someone hadn't thought about it and wanted to consider. |
Hmm I absolutely hear you on this. I think this is the discomfort I find too. I think, however, this furtger strengthens my thoughts that a large reason frum dont have (as commonly) is because of what others would assume/think. Which is uncomfortable/ troubling to me. Basically, peer pressure to the opposite way.
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watergirl
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Tue, Aug 02 2022, 9:46 am
I'll share a funny/sad anecdote re: the expense of a dog to illustrate how non-dog owners think a dog will always be expensive. It really is eilu v'eilu. You can spend a ton... or not.
My husband's ex wife was in court and beis din with him a number of years back. She was claiming he owed her tens of thousands of dollars (he did not and both courts threw out the case but that's a story for a different forum). One of her claims was that he (we) had a dog and we were feeding the dog and taking the dog to the vet rather than feeding his kids and paying for their doctors bills. Aside from being an outright lie about feeding kids and doctors bills (we had the receipts from the doctors and he paid his CS every month on time), not only did he tell the BD and court that he is happy to provide the dog food receipts, he is also happy to provide the vet records and account to show that we spend the $20/6 weeks on food and $100/3 years on vet bills.
The dayanim in beis din told her to stop bringing up the dog and the bills and said we are entitled to have our family dog. This was a very very frum and very highly regarded beis din. The secular judge would not even hear it.
I'm bringing this up to illustrate a few points - the expense is not always so high, and that the dayanim in beis din had zero issue with us having a dog and defended it.
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