If you were the Teacher what would u do?

marina ↓

Sun, Apr 06 2008, 7:49 pm

Quote:

I am talking about a little girl from a biggish litvishe family 3yrs old. Who ever since she has been in daycare at age 19mnths to now being in my class has a very raw sore bottom. SHe is always traveling there almost all the time every day in school which is four hours. If we tell her to pull her skirt down then she will lift her top up and touch both her nipples or her belly button. This child is always coming with colds dirty clothes she is an adorable child when she is in a good mood if you get her in a bad one she becomes expressionless time out doesn't work her face turns to stone and she looks as if she just doesn't care.

Maybe it's just me, but I seem to be missing many parts of this story. Does the girl wear underwear? Is she potty trained? Does she have a raw bottom like a diaper rash which has not been taken care of or like someone has been assaulting her? Do you think she is being molested just because she touches herself or is there something else?

Before you call social services, you need to know that you will be asked all this and a lot more. No one is going to come out and do an investigation about molestation just because the kid is playing with her bellybutton. Is the family poor and that's why the child seems somewhat not well taken care of? Did you ask the child whether anyone touches her down there? Does the child have siblings in the school and if so, do they look well taken care of? Did you ask them why her bottom is so sore?

I have called social services quite a few times and I would not call about this unless I had more information directly from the child or others in her family.

↑ MRS.Mentsch

Sun, Apr 06 2008, 7:55 pm

chaylizi wrote:

yeah they'll pull kids out on no basis. for instance, a babysitter once reported abuse b/c the kids (who were multiracial- black & asian I think) had mongolian spots on their posterior (for the uninitiated those are black & blue birthmarks that black & asian kids are often born with) the kids were pulled out of the home immediately without investigation. the kids were returned sometime after the pediatrician confirmed the kids were born with them. but there is a permanent casefile with the family's name- for no reason at all.

While I agree that a family should not be broken up without cause, I think that you are scaring the OP unnecessarily. The OP is a professional trained to spot problems, she and 2 other similarly trained coworkers all have the same concerns, not to mention several people on this board who have had personal experiences with abuse. Lets focus our efforts on helping the OP with helpful ideas on how to assist this child.

As we say, if you save one person, you save the WORLD. This poor child may bein a very dangerous situation. OP maybe suggest to the family that she have a sleepover at (anyones) home because they get along so well.

Last edited by MRS.Mentsch on Mon, Oct 26 2009, 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ chayitty ↓

Sun, Apr 06 2008, 8:06 pm

she should def. look into it but reporting sometimes brings more harm then good. if shes being negleted that is terriabley wrong but is foster care any better???...if read lots of storys where kids got put into foster care and where abused and neglegted even more. thats y I would go to a rav, a frum social worker, someone who is there to look out for the child and not just make this a step on the ladder to further theyre carrer

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Apr 06 2008, 8:35 pm

Op here again.

Quote:

Does the girl wear underwear? Is she potty trained? Does she have a raw bottom like a diaper rash which has not been taken care of or like someone has been assaulting her? Do you think she is being molested just because she touches herself or is there something else?

Unfortunatley yes we do think that Crying

though noone is actually voicing it amongst us teachers because we are terrified of going there of thinking that.
This family is a big family as far as yichus in the Litvishe community in general so I want to be so careful as to not do the wrong thing but rather err on the side of caution and not jump the gun and cause admas nefesh for doing the wrong thing.
It seems so unlikely that it's abuse because of who the family is but going by the child it is showing all signs unless it is an autism or sensory disorder which I really hope it is. as someone above mentiuoned.
it could be too it's not a family member but someone/thing else altogether. but it's not normal the excessiveness of it, yes lots of kids like to explore but not constantly not like this rememeber I have been with kids for numerous years to know what is normal and what is not.
If I report which legaly I know I should because yes it is licensed who knows what can of worms I am opening if indeed it was just nothing?

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Apr 06 2008, 9:59 pm

OP,

I too was from a big macher family. No one would ever guess I was dealing with it, but I was. And years later when my parents did something VERY VERY illegal and it was followed up by IRON CLAD PROOF I decided to press charges, but the police wouldn't do it because of who my parents are. This is the problem with trying to keep it within the community. Please report anonymously if need be.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Apr 06 2008, 10:02 pm

amother wrote:

former abused kids, that's me, will be the first to not want to run to the authorities with every little scratch and whimper. but your case sounds so scary and makes me deeply upset. trust me please, if you all think this, and the signs are more than just one little something please do something. please help save a life. I wish someone had turned my mother in while I was still young enough to get out. but everything is min hashamayim and I'm B"H better than okay now. but sounds like you have been given a chance to help an innocent child.

↑ flowerpower

Sun, Apr 06 2008, 10:06 pm

I will say it one more time, DO NOT call child services ever! they dont save lives, they just do more harm. call someone who will help and is a reliable sorce that u heard does good things. some agencies arent good at these things either. find the right resources before u do anything and if u think there is something going on u should try to do something

manhattanmom

Sun, Apr 06 2008, 10:23 pm

I agree with everyone who has said to "report immediately"
In NY State (and I imagine other states as well) a teacher is one of the people who is a mandated reporter for suspected abuse/neglect. That means that you have a legal obligation to call this to the attention of a school nurse or counselor--or whoever is mandated as the "School's reporter." Yes, every school has to have ONE staff member (often the nurse or a psychologist) who has to be told about every suspicion. If the mandated school reporter is not interested in doing this, the teacher SHOULD DEFINITELY call from outside of school as an Anonymous reporter.
I don't understand why so many yeshivas don't have this plan. It is legally required. It's a shame that the yeshivas that I've been involved in (I.e. as a staff member) did not educate their teachers (especially the straight from seminary ones) about the signs of abuse and neglect and explain the school procedures in how to report it. Child abuse and neglect does happen in the frum world.

↑ marina

Sun, Apr 06 2008, 10:53 pm

Quote:

In NY State (and I imagine other states as well) a teacher is one of the people who is a mandated reporter for suspected abuse/neglect. That means that you have a legal obligation to call this to the attention of a school nurse or counselor--or whoever is mandated as the "School's reporter

Being a mandated reporter does not mean you have a legal obligation to call this to the attention of the school nurse. Being a mandated reporter means that you have a legal obligation to report this to your local child and family services agency. That means if the principal is not doing anything, you are legally obligated to do it, if you suspect abuse.

That said, I am still not clear on why you think she is being abused. Because she touches herself excessively? Maybe she has a yeast infection and the parent doesn't know what to do about it.
I would talk to the child and ask her if anyone has ever poked her there or put anything in there. I would have the nurse look at her rash and ask her about it, if you have one on staff.

Amital

Mon, Apr 07 2008, 2:00 am

I would say you have concrete evidence of neglect. Having a red sore bottom, even if it is "merely" a yeast infection, for over a YEAR is not normal and is not evidence of proper care for this child! I would assume that if it had been checked out, the parents would speak to the teacher about it and possible treatments...Your observation of constant touching and picking means that it bothers her, so even her mother's excuse about her not caring doesn't hold water here.

If you have a nurse on staff, that would be a good place to start. Identifying the cause of the soreness, or even getting a better idea, might be helpful.

What does the little girl say about any of this?

bubby

Mon, Apr 07 2008, 7:04 am

The system stinks, there's no question. HOWEVER, it's the only one in place right now, so I'd run, not walk, to report this. But the question is...to whom???

Technically, neglect is abuse, but this sounds more, & I'm not sure the stoney-face is an indication of autism; I'd say it was just plain anger (understandable.)

If you're in NY, or even in the US, you could call Ohel. Call Rav Duvid Cohen, Ohel's Rav. I called Dr. David Pelcovitz a few months ago on a very complicated, multi-family situation to get clarity, then I called my Rav for a Psak on whether/how I should approach the authorities (this case was overseas.) Asking a shaaleh first was my only choice & although I wasn't comfortable with the Psak, of course I followed it.

It's terrible to be in this situation, but ignoring it will give you heartache for ever. You'll always worry what happened & how scarred & damaged the child became. It sounds like you really suspect abuse, so please get some guidance on how to deal with this, or you'll never be able to live with yourself.

Hatzlacha!!

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Apr 07 2008, 10:43 am

before u call social services, find out more. SS will most likely remove child while investigating....very traumatic for child, esp if nothing is happening.

Do know who their Rav is? Ask him if he suspects anything.

I'm sorry, but a rashy bottom, refusal to put on hat & gloves, and touching nipples & belly button does not sound like abuse.

It does sound like emotional development issues though. Suggest that she be evaluated for ot and counseling...if there are any board of ed ppl in the school, ask them to look at her or if you have a friend who is a counselor....find someone who can look at her unofficially for their professional opinion.

Kids are very manipulative, I know, my dd is one...she doesn't like to wear hats and gloves, so I don't fight w/her....if she gets cold enough she'll put it on. My dd also has very sensitive skin w/ rashes all the time, we work on it in our way, she also touches herself obsessively....the dr didn't have a problem w/it...said it was normal childhood exploration.

DD also has a lot of sensory issues, OT helps tremendously. She also had a lot of fears and discipline things, counseling helps w/that.

DD teacher also approached me w/concerns about things from home...but after she started OT and counseling and they were with her enough before and after, they began to see taht it was the emotional stuff, not home stuff.

I'm not saying that there isn't anything to be concerned about, but before reporting to SS, use play therapy w/the child, as for a friends professional opinion (child psychologist, ot, etc), and try to have her evaluated. Speak to the families Rav. Once you go to SS, there is no reniging.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Apr 07 2008, 3:49 pm

OP,

I say this out of concern for you, not as a threat. BUT, if the authorities find out you posted this, and that you knew there was an issue, but that you didn't report it, YOU can end up in jail. You don't need to call with a diagnosis, you DO need to call with observations. If you are afraid of the child being removed unnessesarily, I would report to BOTH CPS and the JFS.

The first thing they'll do is take the child to an EXPERT in childhood abuse, not just any shmo. Please, OP let us know how this went.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 10:50 pm

Ok so Op here ! I did aproach the mother with our concerns taking the bull by it's horns shall we say. I just said that Your daughter is displaying abnormal behaviour in certain areas , she is a bright adorable girl if it's possible that concerning those issues like touching and exploring and esperessionless at times can get looked into and have her asessed or a Dr give advice etc. I too told her that they are offering testing soon in our school so if she is interested to let the Prinicpal know.

yes perhaps I have chutzpa perhaps I should have done it otherwise but I felt comfortable approaching the parent . Anyways will keep u posters up to date and yes I am very Thankful that I did not call ss I would not be able to sleep at night Exclamation